[Mike Sweeney]

In a typical "par" golf round, there are 18 shots from level tees. There are 30-36 putts on greens. The rest are from fairways, rough and green surrounds.

I would have to say that Eastward Ho! (which has been well documented here at GCA) has the wildest terrain of any course that I have played, and provides the least amount of level lies.

In reviewing my week on Cape Cod, my best round was at Wianno which provides the flattest landing areas, my middle round was at Cape Cod National which has rolling terrain for the most part, and only severe terrain on 2-3 holes. Eastward Ho! was the worst scoring round yet was the most fun. In reviewing the round, yes it plays shorter than Cape Cod National, but some of those wedges are simply difficult to hit on the wild very fun terrain of Eastward Ho!

We always talk about classic courses protecting par at the green, but can't par also be protected with the unlevel lie out in the middle of the fairway too?

On the 5th hole at Merion for the pro golfer, is par protected by that green which slopes to the creek or by the stance where his feet are at least 6+ inches below his ball?

[Sean_A]

We always talk about classic courses protecting par at the green, but can't par also be protected with the unlevel lie out in the middle of the fairway too?

Mike

I rail on about topography being used rather than bunkers and water - especially on a windy site all the time.  Controlling the ball flight is so important on courses with loads of micro undulations (a rihcism).  I really like it when I am well inside wedge territory and it ISN'T very windy, yet I feel it is better to flat an 8 iron to stop a hook, slice or even to keep the ball out of  a minimal wind.  

I can't tell you how often I look at pics shown on this site and imagine the greens with no bunkers or much less.  I am finding bunkers more and more depressing to look at.  The damn things are eating at the soul of the game.  

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I think uneven stances add tremendously to the test of ball striking.  Huntingdon Valley is an excellent example taken even further where many times you have to hit a fade off a draw lie or a draw off a fade lie.  At Merion (for righties), you can have an uphill lie on the second shot, the ball can be well above your feet on the second shot on the 2nd and a downhill lie on the third shot, the second shot on the 5th unless you challenge the creek on the left where you are left with a more level lie, below your feet on the left side of the 6th hole, a side-hill/down-hill lie for the second on 7, a ball well below your feet on the left side of 12 and all sorts of different lies on the rolling 18th fairway, particularly downhill lies.  Uneven lies make ball striking and distance control more difficult, especially to firm greens.  At Merion, there are a number of shots where the ball is a foot above or below your feet.

Regarding the 5th at Merion, par is protected by a number of factors including the length (507 yards from the championship tee), having to work the ball on the tee shot for the ideal approach angle or to challenge the creek along the flatter left side, the canted fairway and the firm and canted green.  It is one of the great holes in golf, all on a natural landform.

The Eastward Ho! photos posted on this site demonstrate that even a short course can play tough for anyone given the uneven lies.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Pictures taken 6/30/07. Wedges off of these slopes are not easy.

[mark chalfant]

Mike   it sure can.

White Bear Yacht, near St  Palu MN  has several  holes which  have heaving fairways that range from  washboards to rollercoasters. Hard to judge disatnce  at WBYC, because   you dont  quite know   if ball will perish in the valley or skip over the ridge. As a bonus White Bear   has great /quirky  greens , some  of these terraced beauties fall from front to back. check this great  Ross out when you take your sons to Interlachen  for   the 2008 Womens Open.

Orrin smith's Plandome  CC,  NY  also defends par with bold
terrain

[Tom_Doak]

I haven't seen Eastward Ho! since I was 13, but I can't imagine there is any more variety of stances than at Crystal Downs or White Bear Yacht Club (or Ballyneal).

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

Some three years ago I  was a guest at Eastwood Ho. I cannot remember how much fun a golf course could give you, until I played Fishers Island. The topography of Eastwood Ho was an eye opener. I looked at the card and saw a rather short par 4 as an opener, until I hit the drive and found out that yardages made little sense there.

Why is it the classic old courses give us so much pleasure?

If anyone has the chance to play this gem, double your pleasure and ensure that you stay at The Chatham Bar Inn, an hotel that makes you feel that you are the only person on the planet.

Bob

[Jordan Wall]

Mike,

I agree completely.

At Seattle CC, wedge shots are rarely off a flat lie.  For the most part, there is hardly a flat lie to be found.  This is, in my opinion, a reason that rolling terrain can make golf courses better.  The variety of lies is an aspect key to the game of golf.  I'm sure there are'nt too many flat lies at St. Andrews, and I think that adds fun.

From a strategic standpoint, uneven lies are good as they challenge the player to play different types of shots and really test their playing ability.  The theory of creating uneven lies throughout a golf course is a simple yet effective way to challenge the skill of players.  Sometimes golf courses have holes where the architect tries to do too much, yet in reality it is simplicity that reigns supreme in challenging players.  

I think a great example of moving fairway is Chambers Bay.  I love the fact that the player is continually forced to play solid golf shots throughout the round.  The fairways at Chambers are very contoured and make each shot a joy to play as one has to really think about how to hit it.  Whether it be a wedge, mid-iron, or long shot players really have to think deep about how to play and contemplate their given lie.  As a result, even fairway shots provide fun strategy, which I believe lacks in some modern courses built.  I agree completely Mike, I love uneven lies, as they add variety and force a player to continually hit solid shots, a key feature to the challenge each course should present.

[Noel Freeman]

I haven't seen Eastward Ho! since I was 13, but I can't imagine there is any more variety of stances than at Crystal Downs or White Bear Yacht Club (or Ballyneal).

Tom-

After playing the Ho twice last year, Crystal Downs and WBYC in the last 4 years, I would say that the Ho! has the craziest stances of all of them.  I'll know more about Ballyneal after this weekend!  

WBYC would be my second choice for craziest stances and I would deem the terrain there as the most similar I've seen to E. Ho other than Royal Hague.  

In the article I wrote for Neal Crafter's GA 10, I wrote:

From the start, Eastward Ho! reveals itself as a holographic golf course.  A hologram contains an image of the whole and even when parsed retains that identity—the totality remains in every part.   Every shot we take over the course will be defined with boisterous terrain, hanging lies, ground and aerial game options and stunning scenery.    

[SPDB]

Mike - I totally agree.

For a combination of blindness and uneven lies, I think even Round Hill has Eastward Ho! beat. It is uncanny, either you are on a flat lie, in which case you can't really see your target, or you can see your target, in which case you are on a difficult uneven lie.  The same pattern can be found at Ekwanok.

It is a simple strategy that is marvelously effective. IIRC, I think the scores at the Mid-Am qualifying rounds at Stanwich and Round Hill were comparable, despite the fact that Stanwich is a considerably longer course.

[Jon Wiggett]

Gents, you should try telling someone about how great such courses are who has just told you that unlevel lies are unfair because they do not reflect the reality of the driving range where you learn to play golf!  

[Doug Siebert]

I think its important to ask how tight the fairways are (or maybe the right question today is "what do they stimp at?") when considering the level or unlevel lie.

I've played some courses with some pretty drastic fairway contours in places that would be quite difficult to play from, especially with the ball below your feet, which is 20x harder for me than ball above my feet!  But you never actually have to play there because the fairways are cut so short the ball rolls off the big contours into flatter areas, or into the first cut of rough.

Is this is a problem on older courses like Eastward Ho! that were surely designed when fairways were cut much longer than they are today?  Are there places that used to hold great difficulty for approach shots that today you don't need to worry about because your ball cannot end up there?

[Ray Richard]

Eastward Ho! hired one of the assistant superintendents out of Shinnecock after the last US Open. He has been upgrading the fairway turf with aerification, etc. so they are really rolling well-which may add to the preponderance of tough lies, by directing golf shots into areas that were not meant to be played as fairway.  

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