Since Lou asked, how about talking specifics about Prairie Dunes

[Terry Lavin]

Scott:

Sure, there are wide holes, but there are too many (maybe five) where the landing zone is pretty narrow. It's one thing to miss the fairway and have some rough to deal with. The gunsch isn't much more playable than lateral water hazards, so having it in play for marginally imprecise shots is needlessly punitive.

Nice of you to remember my earlier "slight" in not replying to your earlier defense. This is what I alluded to in my post above.

[Scott Warren]

Which holes do you have in mind as being too narrow?

[Terry Lavin]

Which holes do you have in mind as being too narrow?

7, 9, 11, 12, 13 and maybe 18 come to mind. Maybe you think these holes are roomy, and maybe your experience there involves more visits than mine, but there's too much target off the tee for a prairie course for my tastes.  If you like effectively unplayable water hazards off to the side of that many holes, then I guess you are in heaven in Hutch. I've played there a fair bit and I think it could be better.

[Sean Leary]

I am not sure if I am one of the people Terry is talking about. I don't think I am but I may be. I agree with him that the course could be improved significantly with some widening and I REALLY think it would be improved if the gunch could be made more playable. Brad Miller and I were just talking about this on the phone last week. With both, the course would be made better for the higher handicapper and not really affect the low handicapper. The course would be plenty hard regardless.

What I don't know is how to make the native more playable. They try to a great extent with a burn every couple of years. The course has some sort of Audobon status which may affect what they can do. And I think that it might cost a LOT of money to manage, because it is in fact native grasses. I agree that a good percentage of the members unfortunately treasure the gunch as a badge of honor. I look at it as what keeps it from being a Top 15 or so golf course in the world. IMO.

I understand Terry's thoughts on 12, and don't totally disagree with him. I wonder if the left goalpost tree were removed whether that would work but am unsure. Perhaps tree removal and some bunkers placed there would work. And if it were me, the trees on 15 would come down as well, because I don't love them either. My understanding is that 2 of them may be coming down shortly.

[JC Jones]

Sean,

They should go hang out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas to see how to make the native playable. 

[Sean Leary]

Sean,

They should go hang out at Kingsley with Dan Lucas to see how to make the native playable. 

Perhaps. Not sure its the same native though. When I played Shinnecock last year, I thought that native was perfect as well, but it was a different type of native.

[Terry Lavin]

If the gunsch were not the plant equivalent of a water hazard then I can't explain how I find ten balls every time I look for a ball. Very seldom do I find my own ball, mind you, but I find plenty of others. It must look look like a Hutch "S'mores" Festival when they burn down the gunsch.

Again, I love the place but I think it could be better and more playable.

[Sean Leary]

If the gunsch were not the plant equivalent of a water hazard then I can't explain how I find ten balls every time I look for a ball. Very seldom do I find my own ball, mind you, but I find plenty of others. It must look look like a Hutch "S'mores" Festival when they burn down the gunsch.

Again, I love the place but I think it could be better and more playable.

Often worse than a water hazard because it is a re-tee instead of a drop.

As far as the burning goes, what is amazing is how fast it grows back after a burning. Its insane. I have been there a week or 2 after and its still pretty lush. And the sight of thousands of burned golf balls is kinda wild.

Part of the issue here too is the wind. The wind makes it play a lot narrower, especially on cross wind holes like 9 and any into the wind holes.

For me, if they kept it the same width but made the gunch playable I would take it and run...

[Terry Lavin]

Sean,

That would be nice, but i fear the plant is way too hardy to expect that a thinning would make it more playable. It has to be pushed farther out of play.

[Lou_Duran]

If the gunsch were not the plant equivalent of a water hazard then I can't explain how I find ten balls every time I look for a ball. Very seldom do I find my own ball, mind you, but I find plenty of others. It must look look like a Hutch "S'mores" Festival when they burn down the gunsch.

Again, I love the place but I think it could be better and more playable.

Often worse than a water hazard because it is a re-tee instead of a drop.

As far as the burning goes, what is amazing is how fast it grows back after a burning. Its insane. I have been there a week or 2 after and its still pretty lush. And the sight of thousands of burned golf balls is kinda wild.

Part of the issue here too is the wind. The wind makes it play a lot narrower, especially on cross wind holes like 9 and any into the wind holes.

For me, if they kept it the same width but made the gunch playable I would take it and run...

Agree with both guys.  Though I think the Perry holes are better individually (2, 8, 9, 10, 17, and 18 particularly, I can't think of a Press hole that really stands out), the entire course works.  Wind is the key factor here.  In Orange County (CA), the gunch/width issue would not be significant.  It is in Hutchinson where during three trips and probably 8 or 9 rounds, I can't remember a calm day or a game without several expeditions into the gunch and multiple lost balls among the group.

There are numerous opinions on the gunch.  Management and members will offer different variations, but I think they like the course as it is.  And why not?  It is a fantastic place.  Though Crystal Downs is in a different climate, the gunch there during my single weekend visit there was more what I would prefer at PD (and would get me to write the check).  I've been told that CD used to have impenetrable, automatic lost ball gunch like PD, but they found a way to manage it.  Our group seldom lost a ball and the penalty was generally a partial stroke.  Whether this is accurate or not, or if it would be possible in a hotter climate of KS, I don't know.

[Tom_Doak]

Though Crystal Downs is in a different climate, the gunch there during my single weekend visit there was more what I would prefer at PD (and would get me to write the check).  I've been told that CD used to have impenetrable, automatic lost ball gunch like PD, but they found a way to manage it.  Our group seldom lost a ball and the penalty was generally a partial stroke.  Whether this is accurate or not, or if it would be possible in a hotter climate of KS, I don't know.

Lou:

It's true that Crystal Downs' green committee has been trying to manage the roughs over the past few years, at significant expense.  I think they've taken some of the nature out of it, and I miss the wild strawberries that used to grow out there in spots.  No matter what they do, the rough is not too bad in April and May, killer tough in June and July if we've had a wet spring, and starts to thin out by fall in most years.  Mike DeVries and I have suggested cutting it back in some areas and I just had a memo from the superintendent a week ago that they want to follow through with that on a few holes.

The grasses at Prairie Dunes are almost entirely different species due to the climate.  They could clean them up some if they wanted to [pulling more yucca out, at least], but it would be hard to change the general character of those roughs.  Grass just grows thicker in warmer climates.

[Jeff Goldman]

Folks,

Interesting replies, especially Tom's reference to 14 and not really getting enough out of the property.  I can't speak to that, but it does require less thought from the schlepper than most others -- if the wind is helping, try to hit it over the hill and down, and, if not, play out to the right.  I think the green is a comparatively simple (compared to the other greens on the course) Biarritz variation, though others might think that this less wild green lends variety to the course.

From my relatively brief experience, the gunsch is actually playable early in the season after it gets toasted, though I'm not sure about late.  The course seems plenty wide, but it draws balls like crazy anywhere.

Couple things make this course special to me -- it is so different from the parkland golf I'm used to, and is also very difficult, but the difficulty results in fun shots rather than just stuff that can't be done.  Not much in the way of forced carries and extreme difficulty near and on greens will do that.  Also, the members are terrific, as people have noted.

The other thing that makes the course special to me is the guy in Ian's picture.  A great friend, who insisted that I get to Prairie Dunes when he found out I was moving.  Basically joined me to the club.

Jeff