Removing a club from your bag

[Tom Huckaby]

David - you're obviously a damn good player given your competitive results, and obviously suffered some lack of putting confidence given your last post.

So please do report - why didn't you go to two putters?

Your answer might help my deluded friend shivas.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Ober,

Someone mentioned the heavy putter to me last Sunday.

As to why the 6-iron seemed to make sense to me, it's because I felt that I could most easily duplicate its playing qualities through modified swings to the 5 and 7 irons.

Tom Huckaby,

I wouldn't be surprised to see the two putter trend take hold.

In this age of specialization, it would seem to make sense.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Well of course you're going to say that, because you now need to delude yourself as shivas is.

Now way that's going to happen... not unless the number of allowable clubs gets increased.  Specialization means all sorts of other hybrids, multiple wedges, lofted fairway woods, etc.  And you still only get 14.  I just don't see the benefits of two putters out-weighing the want/need for some other club.  Oh it might for the desparate... but remember, lots of people suck with the broomstick as well.  

Let's talk again in a few months.  I firmly believe you yourself won't be using two for that long.  Then let's talk again next year, and you can point out to me all the people besides shivas who carry two putters.  I believe it will be a short conversation.

You know it in your heart, my friend - it's a desparate act for desparate times.  And thankfully few get this desparate.

TH

[Garland Bayley]

Shivas:
...
Garland - the revisionist history is yours.  I firmly believe people far more people came to use hybrids AFTER seeing pros use them.  But whatever turns you on.  ...

You may be right about more people using hybrids after seeing pros use them. However, those people don't get their clubs for free. They put every new driver that comes out in their bag immediately. None did anything like that for the hybrids. They considered it a crutch for the high handicapper.
What you wrote indicates they was always use innovations that will help them.

... - the point is that if this truly helped one get the ball in the whole in fewer strokes, then hell yes pros would use it.
...

My point that was that your statement was untrue with respect to hybrid use by the pros. They were slow to adopt. Many resisted the adoption and openly stated so. But eventually all came around.

My other point is that some of them would benefit from two drivers, e.g. Phil, all the time. However, they are slow to make such changes since they are so good at what they do now.

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

I don't recall saying that.

But it also changes nothing.  I still very firmly believe that the benefits of carrying two putters don't even come close to outweighing the potential benefits of several other clubs - additional hybrid, lofted fairway wood, wedge, hell perhaps even a 2nd driver.

Remember my friend, if you suck bad enough at putting to take this step, it's no guarantee you're going to be better with a broomstick.  Oh I know it worked for you... but that doesn't mean it will work for all.

I tried a broomstick - just for kicks - and was far far far worse with it from every distance.  And I am not alone.

Answer for that?

But the craziest thing is this;   Y O U are the Sybil here (and if you're gonna use a dated pop culture reference, it's better to spell it correctly).

Every other post you keep changing your mind on if pros are going to use these.  So now are we back to they will?  Last post you said they lack no confidence so they won't?   Which is it?  Are you shivas now or savihs?



TH

[Ally Mcintosh]

I recently solved the 3 wedge dilemma (GW, SW, LW) by starting to carry 53* and 58* wedges.  

sounds like you have 4 wedges going there...

but yeah. 48, 53, 58 is the perfect 3 wedge strategy for me...

[Tom Huckaby]

Shivas:
...
Garland - the revisionist history is yours.  I firmly believe people far more people came to use hybrids AFTER seeing pros use them.  But whatever turns you on.  ...

You may be right about more people using hybrids after seeing pros use them. However, those people don't get their clubs for free. They put every new driver that comes out in their bag immediately. None did anything like that for the hybrids. They considered it a crutch for the high handicapper.
What you wrote indicates they was always use innovations that will help them.

... - the point is that if this truly helped one get the ball in the whole in fewer strokes, then hell yes pros would use it.
...

My point that was that your statement was untrue with respect to hybrid use by the pros. They were slow to adopt. Many resisted the adoption and openly stated so. But eventually all came around.

My other point is that some of them would benefit from two drivers, e.g. Phil, all the time. However, they are slow to make such changes since they are so good at what they do now.

Garland:

Whatever.  This is wholly tangential to the main discussion.  If you firmly believe that we'll soon see lots of pros using two putters, then God love you but we just disagree.

TH

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Remove the 3 wood for me...I dont really know why I have it in the bag ...hardly ever use it and certainly dont hit it well enough..or long enough to reach many 5 pars.
I guess it is only in there as a security blanket if my driver goes haywire...which fortunately it does not very often.

[Tom Huckaby]

Remove the 3 wood for me...I dont really know why I have it in the bag ...hardly ever use it and certainly dont hit it well enough..or long enough to reach many 5 pars.
I guess it is only in there as a security blanket if my driver goes haywire...which fortunately it does not very often.

Michael - glad you are here -another very very strong player.

So.... I understand the logic that for great players the 3wood has little value - it's in the shivas post a few back - you only need so many clubs that go that far.

BUT... would you ever consider replacing it with a second putter?  And if so, why?

If you drop it, wouldn't another wedge, or hybrid, or something else have far greater value?

You are a perfect example to settle things between me and shivas.  Not to put you on the spot.

 

[Mike Benham]

A simple question for Shivas and Patrick -

With two putters, do you have two different putting strokes?

If so, do you practice both strokes equally as much?

Have you recorded your actual strokes to determine which putter you use more often?

Is one putter face balanced and the other toe hang?  Or are they both FB or TH?

How many putters do you own?

Thanks

[David Ober]

David - you're obviously a damn good player given your competitive results, and obviously suffered some lack of putting confidence given your last post.

So please do report - why didn't you go to two putters?

Your answer might help my deluded friend shivas.

TH

Because I felt that there must be a better way since going with two putters means giving up another club.

I determined the "better way" for me was the "Heavy Putter."

[Tom Huckaby]

David:  many thanks.

Shivas - please read David's response, and if you like do a search on him to see his handicap and competitive results.

That's the bottom line, my friend.  In a world of unlimited clubs, perhaps a switch to two putters would make sense for some people.  But with the 14 club limit and all the other types of clubs being made, two putters is not going to make sense for many - only the very very desparate.

End of discussion, I'd say.  But Michael Wharton-Palmer's response should be interesting as well.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I experimented with two putters decades ago, when High tech putters were first marketed.

My trusty Tommy Armour was great, especially from off the green and at long distances.  While I putted well with it everywhere else, when you see the PGA Tour Pros using certain types of equipment, you have to recognize their expertise in selecting equipment, thus, I experimented with two putters long before this post.

Mike Benham,

Of course my strokes are different.

If they weren't, I wouldn't be employing a two putter system.

The problem isn't in my stroke, it's in my brain.

On the practice green I make everything.
And, on the golf course from outside of 3-6 feet, I don't have any complaints.

My problem is, the closer I get, the more erratic my stroke gets.

[Ted Kramer]

David Ober,

Someone mentioned the heavy putter to me last Sunday.

As to why the 6-iron seemed to make sense to me, it's because I felt that I could most easily duplicate its playing qualities through modified swings to the 5 and 7 irons.

Tom Huckaby,

I wouldn't be surprised to see the two putter trend take hold.

In this age of specialization, it would seem to make sense.

I put the Heavy Putter in my bag for my last round.
I thought it was FANTASTIC.
It is at least worth a look and some consideration.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I have no doubt you experimented; taking the step of putting two putters in the bag is a wholly different matter.  And sure looking to the pros is a good thing re implements; so why are you turning a blind eye now, as LITERALLY ZERO CARRY TWO PUTTERS?

I continue to believe you'll overcome this and get back to reality.  The very fact you're asking us yahoos here what club to replace is what gives me hope for you.... Because it's obviously not a cut and dried decision.

But your answers to Mike B. are illustrative as well.  Logically, how much sense does it make to now have to practice and groove two different putting strokes?  That makes little sense to me.  Of course the short-term fix the broomstick offers seems sexy now... But in the long term?

I am not kidding when I say read Utley's book - all of your answers lie therein.  And it's NOT the crutch (pun intended) that the broomstick offers.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

You never practice, understood - standard m.o. for us working Dads with kids.

But you also just stated how infrequently you use the short putter.  As I read that, it sure seems like another wedge would be a far better use of the club slot.  Do you really find that you use the short putter more than you would such a club... or a hybrid... ?

Methinks you are fooling yourself.  But I don't expect you to give me an answer that will admit this.  I'm just trying to help.

BTW, read David Ober's brief but perfect response for how this truly goes for good players.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

If you firmly believe that we'll soon see lots of pros using two putters, then God love you but we just disagree.

Huck, you just don't get it.  I'm not saying that PROS will use two putters.  They don't need to.  Why?  Because they make everything as it is!!

The only ones I could even see doing it are the guys who already went to the long putter.  And they won't need to do it because if their putting is so bad they need the long putter, then it stands to reason that their ballstriking has to be fricking AWESOME or they wouldn't be out there at all.  

As such, they don't misfire a lot and don't have long lag putts nearly as much as the sloppier hitters out there on Tour (and even they don't have that many).  

Therefore, there is very little reason for even a long-putter user on Tour to take on a second putter because the situation that a second putter would help them with doesn't occur that often!  

Couple that with (a) their need to be precise with second shots into par 5's because that's where the Tour game is won and lost, (b) the tricked up courses they play where the bunkers are specifically placed to find driver distances, (c) and the fact that they all have confidence in 3 and 4 woods and 1 iron hybrids because their swing mechanics are perfect, and there is no reason in the world for a tour pro to switch.

Now go to the next level down, where long hitters can blow it over most trouble, where they might not have confidence in their 3 woods, where they get a little sloppy with irons and face more 60 footers, and that's a completely different story.

Got it, and get it.  Your logic just remains wacky because you still are trying to tell us good players will use two putters, but pros won't, ostensibly because they're TOO good.  This makes little sense.  Just give up the contention that good players will make this switch and you and I have no further disagreements.

The number of people who will switch to two putters still remains very small, and it's still not going to be good players - only those very very desparate with their putting.

There simply remain other better uses for the club slot.  Read David Ober's post.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

OK, you've convinced me it works FOR YOU.  I never really should have questioned such; you are an admitted head-case AND a very long hitter, so it this crazy plan helps you, well hell, more power to you.

You will have an exceedingly difficult time convincing me that for most people the benefits of a second putter outweigh the benefits of the many other choices that could fill that slot.  You have zero chance whatsoever of convincing me that it will do so for better, non-head case players.

But you are welcome to keep trying.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

Once again, that's your reality.  But head-case long hitter remains a small subset of golfers, and even in that subset there will be those who benefit more from another wedge or hybrid than a second putter.  You leave out the potential problems that use of two putters add to the mental mix, seeing only the benefits they've given you.

BTW, of course those of us who use short putters could certainly try to hit them 200 yards on slice holes, or off the tee into the wind.  The fact that you actually do is rather helping my case here... proving your head-case, crazy status.

 

Just admit the use of two putters is for desparate head-cases and this can all end.....

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom
I have just ordered the new Adams hybrid, the strongest one they have...I believe 16*..if that ends up being within 15 yards of my 3 wood, I will drop the 3 wood , drop the current hybrid and probably go to another wedge.
I currently have 48*..54* and 60*..and am very happy with that combination, but I would not mind experimenting with 48/54/58/62*
But two putters???
I have enough problems on the greens with one

[George Pazin]

Does anyone out there think there'd be less rush to hybrids, at least among the tour pros, if firmer conditions prevailed?

Does anyone know if more guys used 2 irons at Oakmont, for instance, or at The Open?

I'm under the impression that tour pros use hybrids because they can hit them higher and land them softer - any loss of control is acceptable for these reasons. Mere mortals seem to use hybrids because they are said to be easier to hit (just not by me).

I find distance control much tougher with hybrids - is this just another way I'm weird?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom
I have just ordered the new Adams hybrid, the strongest one they have...I believe 16*..if that ends up being within 15 yards of my 3 wood, I will drop the 3 wood , drop the current hybrid and probably go to another wedge.
I currently have 48*..54* and 60*..and am very happy with that combination, but I would not mind experimenting with 48/54/58/62*
But two putters???
I have enough problems on the greens with one

Michael:  many thanks.  Of course that makes perfect sense to me.

shivas:  please note, the thoughts of another very good player.  I'd say the defense rests, but I'm having too much fun driving your case into the ground.

 

[David Stamm]

I find distance control much tougher with hybrids -  

I would tend to agree with that George, but the variety of lies that I can hit the hybrids out of, IMHO, far outweigh that shortcoming. I have hit shots from lies with hybrids that I KNOW I couldn't have hit with long irons. For example, I had a fw bunker shot where I had a lie well below my feet. I had to stand in grass and really squat to get down to it. About 190 out and I hit the green with my 4 hybrid. No way could I do that with my 4 iron. But I do agree, it is harder to control distances and trajectories as opposed to the irons.

[Jeff_Brauer]

What club to remove?  Hell, if I get mad enough, I remove them all and throw them in the lake, either en masse, or one at a time!

Seriously, I went from four wedges to three myself when I got a hybrid.  If I needed to take out another, based on my increasingly lost distance, I would take out the three wood, based on the fact that I can only reach a few par 5's and laying up another 20 yards in any situation where I can't reach doesn't necessarily cost me another stroke.

[Gordon Oneil]

Tom Huckaby,

I experimented with two putters decades ago, when High tech putters were first marketed.

My trusty Tommy Armour was great, especially from off the green and at long distances.  While I putted well with it everywhere else, when you see the PGA Tour Pros using certain types of equipment, you have to recognize their expertise in selecting equipment, thus, I experimented with two putters long before this post.

Mike Benham,

Of course my strokes are different.

If they weren't, I wouldn't be employing a two putter system.

The problem isn't in my stroke, it's in my brain.

On the practice green I make everything.
And, on the golf course from outside of 3-6 feet, I don't have any complaints.

My problem is, the closer I get, the more erratic my stroke gets.

Talk about "Ding, Ding, Ding..."  We have a winner.

Or as so many intelligent players out there have said, "It's not the arrows, it's the Indian."

Obviously, it's much more fun to discuss the arrows.

Once again, if you'll refer to my post from early, early this morning, there isn't a problem here that Bob Rotella can't cure.

Truly, it'll cure what ails you...