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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2007, 01:26:16 PM »
And the day Pat Mucci stoops to these desparate measures, it's a sad sad day for us all.... because not only can the guy golf his ball, but he at least USED TO BE as mentally tough as a golfer can get.

TH

AMEN Thomas.  Perhaps Pat has been reading GCA too much lately.  A sharp mind like Pat's is very dangerous (to himself) when he tries to use it on the golf course.  ;)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2007, 03:48:14 PM »
Just my opinion...but removing a club from the middle of your set guarantees you will have four shots from the perfect yardage for that club in each round until you put it back in the bag...lose the 2 iron...it's a dinosaur!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2007, 03:56:31 PM »
Shivas:

The hogwash is eminating from thee, my friend.  The point is absolutely NOT that we should use what the pros use - in fact most would be better served NOT using the implements that benefit them - the point is that if this truly helped one get the ball in the whole in fewer strokes, then hell yes pros would use it.

And none do.

I know your rebuttal - don't bother.  It is NOT a matter of time.  Putting is a fundamental part of the game, a HUGE part of it for those for whom the game is a livelihood, and the presence of a myriad of different grips, putter styles, stances, etc. proves that these guys will do whatever it takes.  If use of two putters was truly beneficial, hell yes they'd use it... and use would spread like wildfire.

It remains a desparate act of desparate men.  But if it helps you to regain some confidence, then I'll hush up and you can keep fooling yourself.

Just don't try to sell it to those of us with some remaining dignity and self-esteem.

 ;D


Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2007, 03:57:31 PM »
Would you consider losing the 2, 3, 4, irons and replacing them with 2 hybrids? I just don't see many golfers hitting their long irons well enough to justify keeping them around. I think the 2,3, and 4 irons could be replaced very nicely with the following:

Depending on the loft of your 3wd and the uses that you'd be looking for and assuming that your 5 iron is 27 degrees. . .

17* and 21*
or
21* and 25*

I'd lean towards 21* and 25*. The 21* would be like your 2/3 iron and the 25* would just be a really forgiving 4 iron.

-Ted
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 03:58:16 PM by Ted Kramer »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2007, 03:58:05 PM »
Just my opinion...but removing a club from the middle of your set guarantees you will have four shots from the perfect yardage for that club in each round until you put it back in the bag...lose the 2 iron...it's a dinosaur!

Agreed. That's the rule for all of life. Not just golf.
What I've found is - don't take out the 6 unless you're good enough to hit the draw 7 and the fade 5. Which I guess could also be applied to 'Life'...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2007, 04:23:17 PM »
... the point is that if this truly helped one get the ball in the whole in fewer strokes, then hell yes pros would use it.

...

Tom,

How do you explain the reluctance of pros to give up long irons for hybrids? I think you are really off base on this. The pros seem to me to be very conservative in general. The go with the common wisdom often long after it is no longer common.

I don't have stats on it, but I believe Phil has won a far higher percentage of tournaments when he had two drivers in his bag than when he had one. To me this says he should always carry two drivers. As Shivas points out, it is the second most important club in the bag. With the skills Phil has, for example, letting up on a 2 iron a couple of times a round (if he isn't carrying the three) is going to be less of a problem than what he gains with the driver. There is probably even a better example when it comes to wedges and Phil.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2007, 04:25:16 PM »
Garland,

How would you explain Phil taking out the second driver after having success with two?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2007, 04:27:46 PM »
Garland:

I explain the use of hybrids very easily:  the pros were not at all the last to use these, rather more like the first.  And why?  Because in the end it means less strokes, more money.

If use of two putters meant the same, they'd do so.

So you tell me then - why aren't they doing this if it's so beneficial, especially since at least someone has tried seemingly every other possible putter grip, style, stance etc.?

Sorry my friend.  This is nothing at all revolutionary - the broomstick putter has been around for a long time now - if it really helped to carry that and a short one, I remain convinced many would have done so several years ago.

Shivas remains all wet - at least Pat admits his desparation.  

TH


Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2007, 05:36:38 PM »
I remember a Mark O' Meara quote from10-12 years ago (though I'm sure was said by others many years before) that he sometimes would carry a second putter, "Just to let the first one know it was replaceable."

Thought it was pretty funny.


Tom Huckaby

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2007, 05:39:53 PM »
Michael:

Oh hell, even Ben freakin' Crenshaw likely has a backup "Little Ben" somewhere in his garage.  EVERYONE owns backup putters, and puts them in the bag from time to time - AS A REPLACEMENT OF THE FORMER FIRST-STRINGER -for just the reason O'Meara states.  Can't let those putters feel like they can take things for granted.   ;D

But this is NOT the same thing as carrying two at the same time in competition... and I feel confident that's not what O'Meara said.

TH
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 05:40:59 PM by Tom Huckaby »

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2007, 06:19:41 PM »
Zack Miller of the Stanford Golf team carried 2 putters at the Olympic Club last summer for the Pacific Coast Am. He used  a short anser style for long putts and a long putter for short putts. I am not sure what club he dropped to pull this off

He played as I rememebr but did not win.
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2007, 06:21:20 PM »
JK:

There's one great player.  I'm sure shivas considers this a trend.

And I'm sure Zack Miller did this because he was such a great putter with one, he figured he'd be even better with two... which is the crazy heart of shivas' lunacy....

 ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2007, 06:37:42 PM »
Garland,

How would you explain Phil taking out the second driver after having success with two?

I don't know. Perhaps he is not the brightest light bulb in the batch?
 :D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2007, 06:41:08 PM »
Posted by: Tom Huckaby
Quote
But this is NOT the same thing as carrying two at the same time in competition... and I feel confident that's not what O'Meara said.

I understand that.  Just thought it was a funny quote.  I'm sure Mr. Mucci will figure it out as he is an excellent player.

...And that is EXACTLY what O'Meara said.  I would not have remembered it if he hadn't.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2007, 06:51:58 PM »
Michael:

Fair enough.  It is a funny quote, and I'll take your word for it he did say that - my apologies for doubting that.

I'd just be SHOCKED if he ever actually did carry two putters in competition... which was more my point.

Because you see, I am never going to let my friend shivas slide on this one.  Carrying two putters remains desparation.  One jokes about it... one doesn't actually do it.

 ;D

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2007, 07:23:40 PM »
Tom,  I'm sure O' Meara was just trying to be funny.  I didn't post the quote thinking you/anyone would take it as meaning he was serious and actually DID carry two putters in competition.


I guess both our points were missed.  :)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2007, 07:41:55 PM »
Garland:

I explain the use of hybrids very easily:  the pros were not at all the last to use these, rather more like the first.  And why?  Because in the end it means less strokes, more money.

If use of two putters meant the same, they'd do so.

So you tell me then - why aren't they doing this if it's so beneficial, especially since at least someone has tried seemingly every other possible putter grip, style, stance etc.?

Sorry my friend.  This is nothing at all revolutionary - the broomstick putter has been around for a long time now - if it really helped to carry that and a short one, I remain convinced many would have done so several years ago.

Shivas remains all wet - at least Pat admits his desparation.  

TH



Sorry Tom,

Revisionist history won't work. Hybrids were around long before the pros adopted them. I adopted hybrids long before the pros did. People with problems will look for solutions long before those who don't have problems. The old guys on the old guy tour perceived they had a problem quicker than the young guys. They really do have a problem, they're old and it was reflected in their long iron play. Therefore, they adopted hybrids well before the young guys did.

The magnitude of the problem matters too. The magnitude of Phil's wild driving is greater than the magnitude of Fred Funk's. Therefore, Phil would more likely wake up and use two drivers all the time sooner than Fred Funk. Right now Phil has chosen to see Butch rather than totally adopt the two driver solution.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2007, 10:51:57 PM »
You could also compound the problem by wanting to carry two DRIVERS like Phil!   :o
Wasn't Woosie the first guy to carry two Drivers in a major - at least the first guy in recent memory ;)

Gordon Oneil

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2007, 01:18:54 AM »
JK:

There's one great player.  I'm sure shivas considers this a trend.

And I'm sure Zack Miller did this because he was such a great putter with one, he figured he'd be even better with two... which is the crazy heart of shivas' lunacy....


Zach Miller probably hits today's ball with today's clubs so far that it is simple for him to remove one iron from the top of his set or eliminate a fairway wood or hybrid.  There JUST AREN'T MANY GOLF HOLES OUT THERE to justify having more than one club to hit the ball 280+.

Pat, while we continue to research and discuss an answer to your "carrying two putters" problem, why don't you hurry on down, not to Edwin Watts or your club's pro shop but to Barnes and Noble and pick up any combination of Bob Rotella's "Golf is Not a Game of Perfect" or "Golf is a Game of Confidence" or "Putting out of Your Mind" or "The Golfer's Mind" or "The Golf of Your Dreams."

Please forgive the yelling by CAPS but from what I understand, you are (used to be before this) a pretty good player.  And from what I can read, somewhat intelligent.

THERE ISN'T A FREAKIN' THING WRONG WITH YOUR PUTTING STROKE AT THIS MOMENT THAT IS CAUSING YOU TO CARRY TWO PUTTERS (FOR GOD'S SAKE) THAT CANNOT BE CURED BY JUST A COUPLE OF SENTENCES, OR PERHAPS PARAGRAPHS IF THINGS ARE REALLY THAT BAD, WITHIN THE PAGES OF THESE MENTAL BIBLES.

Find a 24 hour bookstore or your local college library if necessary.

Go right now!

 ;D

Gordon Oneil

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2007, 01:20:19 AM »
One day I'll figure this out...
Obviously, my post begins after the quote with "Zach Miller probably hits..."

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2007, 01:49:33 AM »
All this talk about having 100% confidence in your driver and putter and then losing it after 4-5 holes makes me laugh.

I start out with 0% confidence in each, and in every round they have to PROVE to me that they are worthy of my trust, which they've usually done or not done after about 4-5 holes! ;D

Doesn't everyone have favorite or less favorite clubs?  I like my 1 iron, 4 iron, 7 iron, 8 iron and SW.  Hate my 5 iron and PW.  Even Bobby Jones said he'd always had trouble with his 8 iron (after someone gave his clubs a bunch of scientific tests and said they were all perfectly matched except for the 8 iron)  Should I carry two 5 irons?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Brent Hutto

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2007, 07:31:00 AM »
There are models of hybrid clubs available with a wide range of designs. Some of basically fairway woods with slightly shortish shafts and smallish heads (i.e. similar to fairway wood specs from 15 years ago). Other are not much different from an oversized, cavity-back long iron with a slightly overlength shaft. And everything in between. There are also some that are virtually identical to those "driving irons" that were briefly popular a decade ago.

In my opinion, what happened at the Tour pro level was that the emergence of "hybrids" in all their variations gave them some choices for an intermediate ball flight not as high as Sean's 7-wood but not quite long-iron-like either. Instead of having to choose between "iron" or "wood" with very different ball flights they can find something in between that's "just right".

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2007, 10:19:39 AM »
Having used 3 wedges for about 30 years, I"ve now taken to using two (2) putters.

Which means that I have to remove a club from my bag.

The only woods I carry are, Driver and 3-wood.

Irons are 2-9 with three wedges.

In order to be able to deal with every possible situation and all architectural features, what club would you remove that would have a minimal impact on your play ?

While it's course specific, what club would you remove from your bag ?

I've chosen the 6 iron.



Whenever I tinker with removing a club, it's always the 6-iron that first comes to mind for me also.

Not even really sure why....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2007, 10:21:46 AM »
Shivas:

Your logic remains as screwy as your obviously whacked-out putting stroke.

So is this the way of the future for good players, or not?

You try to say it is.. but then you also try to say it's ONLY for those who lack confidence in putting.

So which is it?  

Brass tacks:  do you seriously think this usage will become commonplace?

I refuse to believe that.  But I know it helps your self-dignity, so I guess I'll leave it alone.


Garland - the revisionist history is yours.  I firmly believe people far more people came to use hybrids AFTER seeing pros use them.  But whatever turns you on.  The point remains re shivas' crazy putting system that it's the act of the desparate - he admits such.  What's crazy about his take is that he also tries to say it's the way of the future for all good players.

It simply can't be both.

TH
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 10:33:10 AM by Tom Huckaby »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Removing a club from your bag
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2007, 10:27:43 AM »
Patrick,

I considered going to two putters several years ago, but never did, so I feel your pain.

Have you ever tried the Heavy Putter? It's a truly different approach to putting since it's extremely back-weighted.