Grass Bunkers

[Jon Wiggett]

What types of grass bunker are there and where are they best placed? Is it possible to place them almost anywhere a sand bunker would be? Are there any pot grass bunker (no not to smoke )? What are your favourite ones?

[Mark Pearce]

Two Hertfordshire courses, Berkhampstead (which is very good) and Chorleywood (a 9 holer where I used to be a member) have no sand, only grass bunkers.  I rate Berkhampstead very highly, though it's years since I've been there.  The grass bunkers on these courses can be every bit as much a hazard as sand bunkers.

[Tony_Muldoon]

One underused feature that grass offers is the whole idea can be turned upside down.


Is this a grass bunker? makes the hole great.

[Rich Goodale]

I've always assumed that most, if not all, of the grass bunkers I have seen (and played into and out of) are ex-sand bunkers, demoted by some green committee at some time for reaons of economy.

Can anybody point out any grass bunkers that were designed that way?  Did some archjitect actually dig a hole in the ground and then re-grass it?  If so, why?  If it were placed in a proper position (i.e. where poorly struck or planned golf balls might end up) it would be quickly hacked up and transmogrified into a sand bunker (assuming sandy soil) or a mud pit (assuming clay, etc.).

Helplessly hoping some Harlequin hovers nearby, awaiting a word.........

Rich

[paul cowley]

Richard....mud pits....now that might be an interesting feature....especially if played through the green and unstaked.

BTW....do not sell out all your new books without saving one for me....I promise [well, hope anyway] to get my act together and send money your way....or just send one and bill me.

The first two have yet to leave my desktop. First rate stuff if anyone out there a has yet to make a purchase.

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I do pay attention, but ignore posts that do not get to the heart of the question.

PS--CSN (and not Y) were far superior to CSN (and Y).  Y was the greatest of the bunch as a solo act, but as a team player, not.  Kinda like Tiger Woods, getting thngs back on topic.....

Paul

Send me your address and I'll send you a book.  I trust you and if you betray my trust I will sic my attack dog/repo-man, Tom Paul, on you!

Rich

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Regarding your post #4, I think you are right on the money (or shall we call it "right on the economy") about how and why most bunkers that we see with grass floors came to be that way.

There're about a dozen at my course (Ross top shot bunkers) that came to be that way for the reasons you cited.

Perhaps the most interesting transition that way was Macdonald/Raynor's Creek Club under the stewardship of Joe Dey. It's all recorded and the reasons are what you cited---economy.

Dey transitioned about half the sand bunkers on the course into grass floors from the 1960s through the 1980s. He actually felt they played more difficult that way and of course they did cost a lot less to maintain that way.

[Jon Wiggett]

Richard,


I also have usually asumed that with a few exceptions grass bunkers are sand bunkers that have been allowed to grow over.
I know that at one or newer two courses that I have played some of the grass bunkers have been built with the idea of turning them into sand bunkers when there is enough money to do so.



I was wondering about the grass bunker thing because whilst playing last night with a friend who has 24 hcp I ended up in a sand bunker next to the 2nd green. I was left facing a shot to a green raised about 5 ft above the ball with maybe 10 ft of green to work with. My playing partner was next to me but on the apron facing a putt up a steep embankment that was cut down very short. I found myself thinking 'phew, thank goodness I am in the bunker with a straight forward splash out and not where he is'. my playing partner's comment was the same but in reverse.

This got me thinking that actually sand bunkers make the shot easy for a low handicap and actually it would be more challenging if the bunkers were grassed.

Clearly upto the invention of the sand wedge in 193? (I think) the sand bunker held much more terror for the low handicapper, so the golden era boys are excused but for quite a while now bunkers aren't the terror they are infact easier than chipping from the grass. Is it really possible that GCAs have missed this point or do they actually use the grass bunker or swale more than we realise?

Tony,

good reply bringing the idea of the inverted grass bunker.

[TEPaul]

"Grass bunkers" actually bring up a pretty interesting question in terms of the Rules of Golf and playability.

In other words, are bunkers that may've been constructed with sand but transitioned into grass floors still considered to be "bunkers"---ie "hazards" under the Rules of Golf.

I'd say no, for two reason---eg the wording of the definition of "bunker" in the Rules and the fact that even grass within a sand bunker is not considered to be part of the bunker (hazard).

[Phil_the_Author]

Tillinghast designed a number of grass bunkers and even incorporated a few into his first design at Shawnee.

Over the years he used them far less, but  they were a design feature of many early courses.

Aren't there a few at Oakmont? or did my eyes and ears (announcers calling them as such) mislead me?

[Brent Hutto]

One underused feature that grass offers is the whole idea can be turned upside down.

Where's the one with the thrice-damned heather on the backside?

Would that be called an "inverted heather bunker"?

If so, I've been once each in an "inverted grass bunker" and an "inverted heater bunker". Both in a span of about 30 seconds, as it turns out.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jon
I wish I knew more about the subject, so I could say with some confidence that I thought grass bunkers are the wave of the future. As others have noted, most existing ones had been sand bunkers and changed over for economic reasons, so why not cut to the chase and save money right from the start? I also happen to think they look wonderful, especially in settings/sites where the eye can tell that sand is not a naturally occuring feature.
Peter

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Long-grass bunker or short-grass bunker?  I don't go much for the former, but the latter are pretty useful around a green, where they are simply a slightly over-developed depression - off the short 5th at Lytham or to the right of the 14th/14th at Hoylake.  But then, as these are not hazards they can hardly be bunkers.

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I do pay attention, but ignore posts that do not get to the heart of the question.

PS--CSN (and not Y) were far superior to CSN (and Y).  Y was the greatest of the bunch as a solo act, but as a team player, not.  Kinda like Tiger Woods, getting thngs back on topic.....

Come on Rich, you aren't the ball.  I gave you the perfect opportunity to level me and you let it go.  Its ironic that you quote a Neil Young song then denigrate the man for not being a team player.

Neil Young wrote "Helpless Hoping?"  In which gonzo parallel universe are you living, Sean?

[Sean Walsh]

Rich,

You might know the answer to this one.

What is the ancestry of the grass bunker that eats into the front of 13 on TOC?

Previously a bunker or too rough to bother mowing?

I've been told that the flat area to its right was once maintained as part of the green.  Not sure if this is true..

And Jon this qualifies as one of my favourites of the species.

[Phil Benedict]

Isn't it astonishing how much mileage CSN got out of two albums in the late '60's?  I saw them last year with Y and, exluding Y's contributions and a couple of '70's tunes (eg Southern Cross) most of the show was from those first two albums, the second of which included Young.  

Stephen Stills doesn't have much voice left.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have purposely designed grass bunkers.  Of course (Tommy N, cover your eyes!) when I do so, I always place a catch basin in the bottom so they remain grass and not mud bunkers.  Drainage is essential.

I use them for:

Variety - on the theory that liberally and seemingly randomly (but actually generally trying to balance left, right, back, front, etc.) sprinkling different hazard types on various sides of greens, fw, etc. will over time cause a repeat player a bunch of different recovery shots, rather than repetitive sand shots

Speed of play - (front right, esp. on an opening hole) rather than sand, and where sand visibility wouldn't be so good or attractive, but the shadow patterns on grass bunkers could be attractive, or where the dark slopes would actually highlight the adjacent green.

Equalizers - Good player love sand, poor players hate it.  Good players hate grass bunkers, but poor players prefer it. In many ways, using grass bunkers seems like a match made in heaven!

Maintenance - Courses everywhere are taking out ever more expensive sand bunkers, just as they have in every recession or depression this country has faced.  As bunker maintenance costs go up due to unrealistic expectations, this should increase.  So, why not learn from the past and design fewer bunkers.  Its not like they are natural in too many locations in the US anyway!

[Clyde Johnston]

I also have used grass bunkers in the past and agree with Brauer's reasons for doing so. Today, I go more for shadow pockets that give a similar look but drain without that stupid drainage basin in the bottom.

In contrast to sand bunkers being converted to grass bunkers, I've had a few courses that the owners (a good player) make sand bunkers out the grass bunkers because he couldn't play out of them.

[Chris Cupit]

Tony,

I agree that the grass mounds look good and do provide great interest.  It's funny but to me the well trimmed symmetrical mounds seen on some courses makes me wanna puke, but a lone scraggly grass covered mound looks pretty good!?

Isn't saying "grass bunker" kind like speaking of "jumbo shrimp"

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for the replies gents. I think Jeff B is about on the mark with his posting. I am for any feature that makes the low handicapper quake and the higher handicapper sigh in relief.

Mark, I think you will find grass bunkers are not hazards because they are not defined as such in 'the Rules of Golf'. Besides, the alternative is of grassy DEPRESSION makes me feel so down .

[Tony_Muldoon]

Is it semantics or what? If they're not bunkers then they're 'specified areas of rough'?  Is it the fact that they are on contoured land that adds spice?  

I've seen them in the fairway and in those cases I assumed they were grown over bunkers. Mostly I can't remember where, but on the PGA course at the Belfry in one of the late holes there's a shortish par 4 with a 'dune' of long grass bang inthe centre of the fairway forcing players to choose which of 4 options to aim for.  I found it one of the few holes I liked on the course and I'm a little puzzled as to why I find this use of long grass so appealing (in the right place of course) when narrowing fairways is generally unappealing.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tony,

maybe it is because hazards or islands of rough don't have the visual effect of narrowing the fairway as is the case when the fairways are pinched in from the sides.

[paul cowley]

One underused feature that grass offers is the whole idea can be turned upside down.

Now this is a feature that will be making a re appearance somewheres just over the Delaware border in Maryland.

I guess for now we will call them 'dump' bunkers, because I think the best way to build them will be to put a small flag out where you want one or two and then have a truck dump a load of dirt on the flag.....and then touch it up with a little hand raking, throw some seed on top and whah lah....a faux debris pile! or nouveaux chocolate drop, or who cares what we call them....right Mr Paul?

[TEPaul]

TonyM:

It's not just semantics. Areas such as grass depressions (or old bunkers whose sand floors have been turned into grass)  are no longer considered to be "bunkers"---eg hazards. That means they become "through the green" area and a golfer can ground his club in them without penalty same as in the fairway, rough etc.

Paul:

I agree with you. I wouldn't mind seeing about half the areas in Maryland that might be planned for bunkers used for various shapes of grass mounds or grass depressions. No question it would be a significant maintenance cost saving. Those kinds of things could just be given a light weedeater trim every couple of weeks or so.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

If prepared with low nutritional rootzone and the right seed mix I could imagine that you may well keep weed trimming down to once or twice a year. That is so long as the natural rugged look suits the situation.