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Garland Bayley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2007, 01:48:02 PM »
Perhaps there is a misconception going on here about the moving of dirt. My understanding is that for the most part dirt was not moved at Chambers Bay to create landforms for golf. They had their routing and holes roughly determined before any dirt was moved. My understanding is that the moving of dirt was more of a function of creating links conditions than it was to create golf holes. The land was a mess from the mining operations. They stripped the land, screened the garbage out of the sand, and replaced the sand. In some places, where there was little sand in the first place, they had to supply it from other sites on the course. This is one of the primary reasons #10 is as it is. It had the purest sand, which was relocated to other places on the course where it was needed.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Murphy

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2007, 02:15:46 PM »
The self-reflective turn on this tread may have broader implications.

Let me start with a quote from Tom Doak lifted from the recent thread started by Peter Pallotta entitled, "What has the ASGCA done for students?"

Doak writes:

"In the end, though, this argument really comes down to how one views the profession of golf course design.  I always believed that golf course design was a part of the artistic/entertainment field, much like writing or moviemaking, where criticism on artistic grounds is accepted and allowed, and in fact considered essential to the growth of the industry.  Many ASGCA members see the business as a profession like engineering or medicine, where competence is the only issue to be addressed.  In that light, my writings in The Confidential Guide were certainly beyond the pale, because I sometimes implied that architects were incompetent, when I only meant their work lacked artistry.  In fact, sad but true, some of them were never going for "artistry" at all."

I honestly don't know if I have ever played a Robert Trent Jones Jr course but I have played a couple Robert Trent Jones Sr courses: Oakcreek Country Club in Sedona Arizona and Kananaskis near Banff Alberta. Each location offers the kind of slack-jawed beauty that gets people from all over the world to travel there just to take it all in.

However, in the case of both Oakcreek and Kananaskis, I came away feeling somewhat underwhelmed by the experience. I enjoyed these courses, yes, but each seemed less than it could have been and more specifically, each seemed eerily similar to the other, like a template had been applied to the terrain. Artistry and indviduality seemed to be missing, but perhaps for good reason. The attempt at artistry may never have been made.

On the other hand, from what I read here about Chambers Bay, and from the comments of Robert Trent Jones Jr posted, it suggests to me that artistry was very much an underlying and important motive driving the design.

This in turn suggests to me that (former?) critics such as Doak and discussion groups such as GCAtlas have had a significant and positive effect on the direction of golf course architecture in general.


Ulrich Mayring

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2007, 05:52:40 PM »
Weren't the "fake" comments less about whether this course is a true links by whatever definition and more about aesthetics?

The course does have an artificial and manicured look to it. It's not natural and rough in appearance as the traditional British links are.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Garland Bayley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2007, 05:56:07 PM »
Weren't the "fake" comments less about whether this course is a true links by whatever definition and more about aesthetics?

The course does have an artificial and manicured look to it. It's not natural and rough in appearance as the traditional British links are.

Ulrich

Once all the grasses are grown in, you might wish to modify that statement. :) Clearly it looks as though it has been shaped, because you can still see the ground that was shaped.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Clark

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2007, 02:44:44 AM »
I played Whistling Straits for the second time on Saturday.  It was not playing soft.  It wasn't rock hard either, but using the ground was certainly an option on Saturday.  They haven't had much rain in June in Wisconsin.

The reason it makes the lists is because the majority of people who play it think very highly of it.  There are several holes not on the water that are very interesting.  Regardless of whether they have full "links cred" or not.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2007, 11:57:06 AM »
Garland,
Actually I raised this point with someone who has spent some time at CB and he said all I was seeing was the equipment tracks...which wasn't what I talking about at all. Don't get me wrong at all, as the course looks nice and RTJ II deserves credit for creating something very interesting and fun to play.
But, I agree with Ulrich, in that the shapes do not have a randomness that you would find on a true sandy, links like site, all IMO, of course.
All the "rough" sharp angular shapes appear to be on the edges and the playing areas appear to be smoothed out. Now obviously you need to do that to a certain extent to get things mowed, but based on the pics I'm seeing, it appears like the sharp shapes all run parallel to the playing corridors.
Obviously, I haven't been there, and I'm not trying to crash the CB love fest, but I am wondering if any of those pushed up sharp ridges run perpendicular, or at least diagonally, to the line of play. Yes I see the equipment tracks, and I know everything was built not found, but it does look a bit forced to me.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 11:58:40 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

Garland Bayley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2007, 12:14:13 PM »
#7 Fairway and Tee (The fairway looking strip) with #6 Green behind.


Don,

I am wondering if what looks less than natural is that there does not seem to be predominant orientation to the ridges that you might see in weather and sea shaped dunes. Knowing it is a reclamation of a sand and gravel pit tends to make my mind more accepting of that.

As for right angles. In the foreground above is the fairway leading to the 7th green out of view on the left. It would appear the "ridge" of the left most dune in the fairway would be at right angles to the line of play.

In the background, #6 runs right to left with the dune separating it from the  7th running parallel to the fairway. Yet, earlier on the 6th there are a couple of dunes to the right of the fairway running perpendicular to the line of play.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RJ_Daley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2007, 12:24:16 PM »
Quote
but I am wondering if any of those pushed up sharp ridges run perpendicular, or at least diagonally, to the line of play.

Don, yes! ;) ;D 8)

I've played Arcadia Bluffs, and Whistling Straits, and walked CB to the extent that I observed the "order" of the contouring and finish grading of each.  I'd pretty much have to say that the order of the line of contouring at Chambers is not "in order" and feels quite random.  Yes, the hole corridors are clearly manufactured to provide for that separation and safety margin, etc.  Obvious that is true for AB and WS.  But, the manufactured bluffs and angles at WS are particularly more artificial appearing to me.  The oddity of some of the vulcanos of dirt topped by the odd bunker at WS and a more ordered contouring in the FWs is quite different between CB and WS in my view.  But, the variety of random lies and places you can trundle to from off the tee in the FWs at CB seems more like the natural humps and random rolls found at a BallyNeal, Sand Hills or Wild Horse, as I see them.   I wonder if Jay Blasi being from Wisconsin, had spent anytime at WS pondering what some might say is the overly artificial nature of that created faux links there, and took measures to improve on the theme.  

All the random rolls through the FWs and around the greens at CB would make it a course you could play a 100X and still find something different to try each time, in my view.  I think that may be even more so for CB than WS, (not to say WS hasn't many interesting features).  I just have the impression that CB is one better in that regard.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2007, 12:44:25 PM »
Frankly, the whole notion of whether something is "real" or "fake" is really silly.

The main emphasis should focus on whether or not the course that comes from such efforts -- either real or otherwise -- works from the standpoint of functionality and artistic license.

I can't comment on Chambers Bay but I have played Bayonne GC (NJ) -- the Eric Bergstol designed layout that was COMPLETELY created by man. I love the layout and believe it offers a very good re-creation of the sensations that comes from playing the authentic types.

Those who are quite narrow in their definitions / preferences will likely rue the man-created version and only embrace the more original types. So be it for them.

RJ_Daley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2007, 12:56:54 PM »
Matt, from a functionality sense, I tend to agree.  One can build a golf course, with all kinds of manufactured rolls and humps (so long as it drains well) and manufacture ridges and dunes and such that look nothing like nature, and still provide a fine test of golf.  It may look weirded out.  But, if all the shots and skill challenging process is there, well... it is about the skill not the photographing.

But, there is something that takes some of these GCAs to the higher level, who can design and supervise the grading out and contouring of a site to provide BOTH the skill set challenge, and the aesthetic influence of immitating nature by knowing how to 'arrange' the artificial in a more natural appearing setting.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Matt_Ward

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2007, 01:10:29 PM »
RJ:

To borrow a "Star Trek" formula -- if I "beamed" someone to Bayonne GC and was able to wall-off the surrounding images -- they vary from the NYV skyline to the neighboring squalor of the oil tanks in Bayonne itself -- the person playing there would in almost all instances be completely CLUELESS on whether or not the actual course was fake or real or anything else for that matter. In that regard Bergstol has done a tour de force job with his creation in New Jersey.

Unfortunately, you have some uppidity noses here on GCA who have such a NARROW acceptance level -- even when the time and efforts have been applied with a good bit of imagination. Bayonne is man's attempt to provide a particular oasis of golf that is clearly a version of what that type of golf should be like if built from the ground entirely up.

It cannot be seen as authentic links -- heck -- the only courses that can be labeled as such are those from across the pond.

When I play golf I am looking to see how well the functionality and artistic license have been merged together. I have played so-called "authentic" links and found a few to be utterly boring and nondescript. The end result for me -- I can't speak for others and what they prefer -- is if the desire of the ownership to create what they wanted to create -- has indeed happened. If someone tells me I am playing some form of Irish golf or links golf -- then they'd better realize what such a linkage (no pun intended) really means.

Jesse Jones

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2007, 01:36:41 PM »
Choi, you must chill my brother.
There's only one question in GCA.
Does it work?

That's it..

If it's not working for you just say so. RTJ II is a big boy. He can take it.

Say what you mean man. If it's not your problem, leave it be.

The reason I say this is because I'm one of the few who's not super high on CB.
It's by far the best course in the State. Two courses at Bandon keep it from being the best course north of the Bay area.
I have a couple of very small issues that keep it from perfect.

But fake? Nahhhhhh.

By the way, I've played Bethpage and CB. Bethpage wins, but it's close.
The par 3's and 5's at BB are better as a whole.
The par fours belong to CB completely.
That's my pure GCA opinion.
Add in the scenery, it's a tie.
I hope to play Erin Hills this summer.


Garland Bayley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2007, 01:47:05 PM »
...
By the way, I've played Bethpage and CB. Bethpage wins, but it's close.
The par 3's and 5's at BB are better as a whole.
The par fours belong to CB completely.
...

Let's see, 8 > 10?  ???

8 par 3s and 5s
10 par 4s

"The par fours belong to CB completely." Wouldn't that make CB win 10 to 8?  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2007, 06:30:03 PM »
Garland and RJ,
Thanks for your thoughful replies.
I guess I'm going to have to get back to the NW and see CB for myself.

Tim Pitner

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2007, 07:29:32 PM »
There's an awful lot of hyperbole going on here.  To say that it's better than Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails is saying a lot, IMO.  To say that it's better than Bethpage Black may be heresy in some circles.  In response to people's comments about the stark contouring, some are saying "give it time."  Well, how about giving Chambers Bay some time before putting it in such lofty company.  I remember when Whistling Straits was the latest and greatest thing.  I watched some of a replay of the 2004 PGA Championship at WS last night, and the course looked so over the top to be almost visually offensive.  I'm not saying the same about CB, but why the need to elevate it immediately?  Just so you can say, "I told you so"?  Could there be an element of overcompensation at work because it's RTJ Jr.?

Matt_Ward

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2007, 12:33:57 PM »
I'd be most curious to know from those who have played Chambers and the courses at Bandon how they would stack them up against each other.

For example, if you had 10 rounds at CB and 10 at Pac Dunes what would be the split for your own preference. Ditto with the rest of the courses at Bandon.

Thanks ...

Jay Flemma

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2007, 01:06:04 PM »
As far as people dont remember easy courses...yes they do..I remember every hole of Conklin Players Club and Sedona Golf resort and like them very much even though the are easy and are not the greatest in terms of GCA...but they are relaxing;)

Tim Pitner

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2007, 01:25:44 PM »
Forget about the routing, green contours and contrivations, Bayonne is very nice for what it is, but say Kingsbarns is orders of magnitude better and is with Pacific Dunes the best of the genre I've seen so far.

Kingsbarns and Pacific Dunes are in the same genre?  I think not.  It seems to me that PD is the real thing, the only element separating it from the links of GB&I being the clifftop setting.  

Tim Pitner

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2007, 01:34:26 PM »
Seems we're beyond slicing and into shaving ......

Really?  You don't think there's a difference between natural sandy soil and dunes (Pacific Dunes) and man-made (Kingsbarns)?

Matt_Ward

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2007, 01:43:21 PM »
Bill:

C'mon -- lighten up on the contrarian impulse.

I know you see Bayonne differently. However, give a bit more credit to what was there prior and what is there now. My God man -- we are talking Hudson County here and not the coasts of Scotland and Oregon. Got it.

Bill, I never said the site was 1000000000000% to other pure links. If one is seeking such a pure Vostinak-proof test then Bayonne will not meet the highest of high bar thresholds. Unfortunately, I don't think the high bar needs to be of Mount Everest proportions.

Given the curmudgeon role you play so well -- you need to play Bayonne a bit more to reveal what is there. For the course to be even mentioned in the same sentence with such heavyweights as Kingsbarnes and PD is quite good in my book.

You seeing it differently make me relish what it offers even more. ;D




Norbert P

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2007, 08:51:18 PM »


  I wonder if Jay Blasi being from Wisconsin, had spent anytime at WS pondering what some might say is the overly artificial nature of that created faux links there, and took measures to improve on the theme.  

All the random rolls through the FWs and around the greens at CB would make it a course you could play a 100X and still find something different to try each time, in my view.  I think that may be even more so for CB than WS, (not to say WS hasn't many interesting features).  I just have the impression that CB is one better in that regard.

Dick, Jay told me that he did believe that Whistling Straits was "tee to green" a great golf course.  I haven't been to WS to make a comparison of features but undoubtedly he was impressed with it enough to mention it in high regards.  I don't think I'm stretching it to say that he must have been inspired by WS.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Richard Choi

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2007, 12:29:42 PM »
By the way, I've played Bethpage and CB. Bethpage wins, but it's close.
The par 3's and 5's at BB are better as a whole.
The par fours belong to CB completely.
That's my pure GCA opinion.
Add in the scenery, it's a tie.

I completely agree with you Jesse. The par 3's are much better at Bethpage and par 5's are superior at Bethpage. But because as you say the par 4's are so strong at Chambers Bay, I have to rate it slightly higher.

I would say similar things about Bandon Dunes. I have played it 4 times and while par 3's are better, I believe par 5's are equivalent and par 4's are better at CB.

I have posted pictures of every hole at CB on a Photobucket. It is not as pretty as some of the other pics around here, but if you want to see every hole, you can do it here.

http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z162/choiliciousforza/Chambers%20Bay/

Garland Bayley

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2007, 01:56:03 PM »
Richard,

copy and paste the "IMG code" from photobucket into a reply message here,and your pictures will show up here in the thread.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2007, 05:16:14 PM »

Kingsbarns and Pacific Dunes are in the same genre?  I think not.  It seems to me that PD is the real thing, the only element separating it from the links of GB&I being the clifftop setting.  

Tim, have you been to Crail?  Talk about clifftop settings!

Ari Techner

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Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2007, 02:49:50 AM »
Chambers Bay vs Pacific Dunes
CB- 3
PD- 7

Chambers Bay vs Bandon Dunes
CB- 6
BD- 4

Chambers Bay vs Bandon Trails
CB- 8
BT- 2

Chambers Bay vs Erin Hills
CB- 4
EH- 6

I have not played Bethpage Black yet.  
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 02:51:05 AM by Ari Techner »

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