Unholy Hole Locations ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Putting any handicap off different tees isn't a problem with posting as basically all tees are rated.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Putting an untrained staff member on course setup is a recipe for disaster for more than one reason. Among them are simple things like setting the cup perpendicular and deep enough all the way up to make locations reasonable. Also, factors such as time and daylight available before the first group off in the morning play into things. It takes me roughly 1.5 hours per nine to do setup, and a lot of the times more because the setup man is also responsible for fixing ball marks and sometimes filling in tee divots on par 3s.

I can assure you the selecting hole locations and actually setting them are two very different things, and when that task falls on one person in the morning can be quite time consuming.

What I mean by rigid variety is the amount of tee space available to move tees and vary angle/yardage, the size of the greens and their contour - things that add variety but do not change from day to day.

The idea with superintendents is to be an invisible factor in the daily golf lives of the members as a whole. One of the most visible instances of the superintendent's work is in course setup. While there are people such as yourself or some of Golfclubatlas.com who applaud and appreciate variance in setup - a "out of ordinary" hole can be a magnet for misdirected criticism. Believe it or not, this is what was taught to me by more than one person and the attitude seems to permeate the business. I don't know how many times I've seen a new hole location be blamed for a double bogey or more, and we're not necessarily talking unfair or even difficult.

Yes, I agree, that when it comes to setting up an interesting variety of holes from day to day a lot of this is distraction and clutter. But a lot of it is also the reality in the maintenance business these days. I would say that most superintendents are more concerned with the appearance and precision of the setup moreso than the locations of the hole providing interest and challenge.

Most superintendents I know are golfers... and most golfers I know don't understand the architectural assets a course has. I'd say superintendents mirror the golf community as a whole in terms of architectural knowledge and where they place it in importance, but that is just my experience to date.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Putting any handicap off different tees isn't a problem with posting as basically all tees are rated.

TEPaul,

At a number of clubs I'm familiar with, you'd have a difficult time forcing single digit handicaps playing the middle tees.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Putting an untrained staff member on course setup is a recipe for disaster for more than one reason.

You're implying the the fellow currently picking hole locations is untrained, and that hasn't been my experience at most clubs.[/color]

Among them are simple things like setting the cup perpendicular and deep enough all the way up to make locations reasonable.

Isn't the fellow currently setting the cup setting it properly ?

If he is, why couldn't he set it properly in another location ?
And, if he isn't setting it properly NOW, what is he doing setting the cups ?[/color]

Also, factors such as time and daylight available before the first group off in the morning play into things.

Not if one fellow starts on # 1 and the other starts on # 10.[/color]

It takes me roughly 1.5 hours per nine to do setup, and a lot of the times more because the setup man is also responsible for fixing ball marks and sometimes filling in tee divots on par 3s.

Most maintainance crews begin work at 6:00 am and earlier.
If play for the members starts at 7:00 am that should leave you adequate time to set the cups.[/color]

I can assure you the selecting hole locations and actually setting them are two very different things, and when that task falls on one person in the morning can be quite time consuming.

I don't doubt that, but, it's not as if the prior day's hole location doesn't help in giving you a head start in determining the day's hole location.[/color]

What I mean by rigid variety is the amount of tee space available to move tees and vary angle/yardage, the size of the greens and their contour - things that add variety but do not change from day to day.

I think that's an interesting topic on its own.

I've noticed that many clubs have ignored the variety or issue of balance, with the course playing to the same yardage day in and day out.  This is especially true when it comes to the back markers on a golf course that's run out of room.

At many courses, the related tee markers are at or behind the rating/yardage monuments/plaques, making the course play at or in excess of the assigned yardage.[/color]

The idea with superintendents is to be an invisible factor in the daily golf lives of the members as a whole. One of the most visible instances of the superintendent's work is in course setup. While there are people such as yourself or some of Golfclubatlas.com who applaud and appreciate variance in setup - a "out of ordinary" hole can be a magnet for misdirected criticism. Believe it or not, this is what was taught to me by more than one person and the attitude seems to permeate the business. I don't know how many times I've seen a new hole location be blamed for a double bogey or more, and we're not necessarily talking unfair or even difficult.

That's why the club's leadership has to be firmly behind the policy.

Once the members realize that this policy is firmly supported by the leadership, they realize that their complaints fall on deaf ears, and accept the practice.

(footnote) I"ve never heard a member who birdied a hole complain about the hole location  [/color]

Yes, I agree, that when it comes to setting up an interesting variety of holes from day to day a lot of this is distraction and clutter. But a lot of it is also the reality in the maintenance business these days. I would say that most superintendents are more concerned with the appearance and precision of the setup moreso than the locations of the hole providing interest and challenge.

That's where the club's leadership comes into play.

They DICTATE policy, including course set-up and conditions.
(Caveat)  Mother Nature gets the final vote.[[/color]

Most superintendents I know are golfers... and most golfers I know don't understand the architectural assets a course has. I'd say superintendents mirror the golf community as a whole in terms of architectural knowledge and where they place it in importance, but that is just my experience to date.

I'd agree.
But, when exposed to the variety, as designed and constructed by the architect, they become more aware of the value of the asset.

Again, the key is the set-up policy must be firmly supported by the club's leadership.

That protects everyone, except the golfer who's above the hole [/color]

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
At a number of clubs I'm familiar with, you'd have a difficult time forcing single digit handicaps playing the middle tees."

Patrick:

Maybe so but that's not the point vis-a-vis posting a score for handicap purposes. They can legitimately do that no matter which tees they play from.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I thought you were suggesting that they move forward on select holes, rather than play from a different set of tees for the entire round.

Peter Kostis once told me that golfers regaining their game, who were about to play in a competition, should play from the forward tees to get into the scoring mode, to get comfortable with having a good number of birdie attempts.

The problem with playing the forward tees at some courses is that it brings a good bit of trouble into play for the longer player, thus causing them to lay up, which defeats the purpose to a degree.