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Jim Thompson

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The benefits of antiquity!
« on: June 29, 2007, 05:06:18 PM »
Never thought I'd say this, but thank goodness for old irrigation systems!  When I get a chance to build another course, I think the irrigation will be considered inadequate by today’s standards.  I’m beginning to believe the only way to stop courses from doing harm to themselves is by tying their proverbial watering arm behind their back.  The conditions at the new place are just great.  I love golden brown rough and appreciate the playing condition over the aesthetic more everyday.  Will water restrictions save golfers from their desires???

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2007, 05:16:29 PM »
Jim,

I agree with you to a point.  I generally prefer heads most places there is maintained turf, but abhor the current trend to allowing each of those heads to run every night via bigger and bigger piping.

I do understand the main reasons for that huge piping -

   Grow in times are often accelerated, and more water in  needed ONLY then, but it is necessary.

   Consultants and Supers want to CYA for bad droughts and irrigation additions later on.

   Flow management software seems to work better when pipe is bigger.

   Large pipes have slower water velocities, extending their useful life by reducing water hammer.

If pipes were sized for no more than every other night watering, the worst that could happen in bad droughts is you water longer, sacrificing a few tee times per day, until it finally rains (except in the desert of course)  That lost revenue should be less than paying the annual debt on a bigger system, shouldn't it?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2007, 06:09:58 PM »
Jim,

Come see me next week. You'll see how grass can survive even when the antique system is broken in the middle of an extended dry spell. Last night was the first water the greens saw since Saturday night. I love it...not sure how the golfers feel....... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Pat Brockwell

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2007, 07:40:08 PM »
Big pipes don't waste water, long run times do.

Brett Morris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2007, 07:50:20 PM »
And bigger pipes usually come with bigger pump stations.

Coupled with a weather station onsite, new central control systems shoud be reducing the water usage on course via precise calculations of ET loss.

Peter Pallotta

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2007, 10:41:22 PM »
If anyone was willing to give the uninformed (me) a mini lesson on all this, it'd be much appreciated.

What makes a system an 'antique' system? Is it basically narrower pipes and fewer heads?  

How many years of life could one expect from earlier/narrower piping?

Why do the newer systems make 'add-ons' easier, and why/in what circumstancs would those add-ons be added on?

With acceleratd grow-in times, is the only way to get more water out there with bigger/more modern systems? Doesn't just watering longer (with an older system) work the same way?

When all the factors are lumped in, are older/simpler systems a lot less expensive than modern one? a little less expensive?

Save by being the owner and superindendent both, can you actually tie the proverbial watering arm behind someone's back? Would you want to, realistically speaking? And then, if down the road there was hell to pay for doing it, who would be the one paying?

As I say, I really am out of my element here, so excuse how  basic these questions are.

Peter  

Brett Morris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 12:33:41 AM »
If anyone was willing to give the uninformed (me) a mini lesson on all this, it'd be much appreciated.

As I say, I really am out of my element here, so excuse how  basic these questions are.

Peter  

Hi Peter,

I'll try and answer a few of your questions.

What makes a system an 'antique' system? Is it basically narrower pipes and fewer heads?  

Older systems are more manually controlled.  Originally there was either an outlet where a travelling irrigator was plugged in, or where a bayonet style sprinkler was pushed in.  These style of systems saw the pump turned on and valves opened up.  Certainly not uncommon to know of guys spending long hours during the night turning on and off valves.  If the course had satellites in the field, the older styles were more electro-mechanical, where you go to the box and manually dial in a run time for a head.  Over time the gears, springs, etc., wear so the time you set could be up to a couple minutes either side of what you wanted.  In general, more manual maintenance is required.

How many years of life could one expect from earlier/narrower piping?

Depends on the pipe.  I'm not sure when PVC came on the market for golf courses but I have worked on courses where asbestos piping has been used.  If the piping has been installed well (surrounded by sand in a trench to allow for movement) PVC should be good for at least 20 - 25 years in the ground (non-freezing).  Poly pipe is more suited now as it can be shaped without the use of elbows and other fittings required for PVC.  With poly being a continuous run, the likelihood of leaks is less.

Why do the newer systems make 'add-ons' easier, and why/in what circumstancs would those add-ons be added on?

Add ons are easier with new systems as they (should) have been designed not to run at full throttle.  You would not expect to have a new irrigation system run at maximum rpm just to irrigate the existing facility, it should be designed so that there is still capacity within the system.  Pumps now are variable frequency drive, so the pumps respond in rpm to the heads coming on and off.  This in turn reduces stress on the pipes, with less leakage.  Circumstances where 'add ons be added on' could be establishing any new area around the property, and in alot of cases say for instance in a resort setting, the main pump station also provides the water to the street scapes, hotel landscape, etc.  At least at the resorts I've worked at.

With acceleratd grow-in times, is the only way to get more water out there with bigger/more modern systems? Doesn't just watering longer (with an older system) work the same way?

First part, pretty much.  Everyone gets hung up on pressure, but flow is more important.  Second part, watering longer can lead to runoff.  Modern systems allow cycle and soaks, so say a 30min run instead of just being dumped on in an older system, it can be split into 3 x 10min bursts, so the water can infiltrate without runoff.  No runoff in grow in means no nutrients are being washed into surrounding areas.

When all the factors are lumped in, are older/simpler systems a lot less expensive than modern one? a little less expensive?

Maintenance wise, older systems can be more expensive to maintain, given the more manual approach to them.  More importantly, a modern system can dramatically reduce watering times during the night cycle.  Flow on benefits mean that watering can be carried out in off-peak periods, meaning cheaper electricity costs when running the pumps.

Save by being the owner and superindendent both, can you actually tie the proverbial watering arm behind someone's back? Would you want to, realistically speaking? And then, if down the road there was hell to pay for doing it, who would be the one paying?

A pro-active approach is required by all with water becoming more scarce IMO.

Long post, hope this helps.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2007, 05:37:09 AM »
Mike Nuzzo and I designed the irrigation system at our new course in TX. We designed it partly because we could not find an irrigation designer who would do what we wanted.
We used fewer heads, and sized everything for a deep, infrequent schedule based on irrigating 1/3 or the golf course every 3rd day. Although our goal is more like irrigation once a week.
We have a state of the art control system...single head control, radio, palm, the best software, weather station,... because I wanted the best control I could get. But we saved great amounts of $$$ by insisting on the design we both believed in. We're irrigating about 100 acres and we designed, and installed the system including a state of the art VFD pump station with filtration and fertigation for $650K. (well and power costs not included)

All our velocities are under 5ft/sec, and we operate the pump station at 90psi (most are well above that, but remember that lower pressure means more flow which means less $$$ spent on power) After we finished the design we had it reviewed by the manufactures’ engineers to make sure the math was correct. (Nuzzo's sort of good at math and he nailed it but we wanted to be sure) And we saved a lot of $$$ because we hired an irrigation contractor to install the system, but we bought and supplied all the materials.

BTW, when I told one of the irrigation designers we were talking to how I wanted things sized based on my irrigation scheduling plans, deep and infrequent, his reply was “no one waters that way anymore”...along with a few other things like “superintendents don’t know how to do that”…blah blah blah.

One thing I learned during the whole irrigation design, vendor selection, installation process…is everyone tries to get you to dumb it down based on some fear that some supt will not know how to use the system. A sad commentary.  


« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 12:12:11 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Peter Pallotta

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2007, 09:06:16 AM »
Brett -
thanks very much - that was very helpful.
Don -
Thanks. It sounds like it turned out very well for you. So well that you'll repeat the process on the next one?

Peter


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2007, 01:40:52 PM »
A lot depends on the climate, but if your talking about britain or most of northern europe then with the right grasses you only really need green irrigation at the most. I appriciate that there are some exceptions but most courses don't really suffer that much in a drought, its often just a case of colour and losing some of the weaker grasses

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2007, 01:50:01 PM »
Our Toro system is about 6 years old.  The weather station that measures the ET etc would over water every time if left to its own programming.  The superintendent has used all of the control to turn the water down, not up.  

Last few areas giving him trouble are areas where trees and shade are the issue.  

We are begining to have some parts issues.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2007, 02:06:22 PM »
W.H.
I've heard that a lot and I wanted to point something out.
Yes, the weather station measures ET, but then the irrigation manager (in most cases on golf courses, the Supt) chooses what % of ET to irrigate.
For instance, on our course the % or crop coefficient as it's called in irrigation scheduling lingo, is set at 60%. Which means, in our programming we plan to gather ET data for 3 days and on the 3rd night return 60% of that amount back to the turf.
Weather stations are a great tool for helping to calculate how much to irrigate, record weather data, as well as supply data that helps make timely chemical applications.

Weather stations and computers do not over water, the folks that program them and set them up dictate how much water is returned. I seriously doubt many courses would use a crop coefficient of 100%.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:41:19 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Don_Mahaffey

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2007, 02:18:43 PM »
Don -
Thanks. It sounds like it turned out very well for you. So well that you'll repeat the process on the next one?

Peter

Peter,
I don't know. Our client encouraged us to do as much as possible, and then get help if we felt we needed it.
Far from what I think a normal project might be like.
When you do something like an irrigation design your taking on added responsibility, and liability, and you might not do that with every project.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:19:27 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2007, 02:32:45 PM »
I am floored by how much money hiring Mike Nuzzo can save a project.

Don, I haven't heard about your status recently. Are you guys 90% complete? Have the recent rains been a bother? Hope all is well.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2007, 02:40:00 PM »
Don, I think part of the issue is determining a preset amount of water over a 140 acre site with varying types of trees and degrees of coverage.  

Our super has simply created sub programs for many of the microclimates.  Actually at one time he had more than the program could deal with.  Then he sets the percentage of water for each depending on weather conditions.  

No matter what this is a huge advancement over a single row of quick couplers!  But then are there any jobs left for college kids in the middle of the night?

Don_Mahaffey

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 02:51:08 PM »
WH,
With any of the better software programs that have come out in the last 5 years, you can actually adjust the crop coefficient for every station on the golf course. If you have single head control that means you can basically have an individual program for every head. Now, that would be a bit over the top, but the software is amazing, (I could develop up to 999 different programs if I wished) and in the hands of a Supt who spends his day on the golf course and makes the needed daily adjustments, any golf course with a modern system should be irrigated properly.

Adam,
The rain sucks. I'd like to send it your way, I'm guessing you wouldn't mind a few showers.

Troy Alderson

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 08:52:11 PM »
Mike Nuzzo and I designed the irrigation system at our new course in TX. We designed it partly because we could not find an irrigation designer who would do what we wanted.
We used fewer heads, and sized everything for a deep, infrequent schedule based on irrigating 1/3 or the golf course every 3rd day. Although our goal is more like irrigation once a week.
We have a state of the art control system...single head control, radio, palm, the best software, weather station,... because I wanted the best control I could get. But we saved great amounts of $$$ by insisting on the design we both believed in. We're irrigating about 100 acres and we designed, and installed the system including a state of the art VFD pump station with filtration and fertigation for $650K. (well and power costs not included)

All our velocities are under 5ft/sec, and we operate the pump station at 90psi (most are well above that, but remember that lower pressure means more flow which means less $$$ spent on power) After we finished the design we had it reviewed by the manufactures’ engineers to make sure the math was correct. (Nuzzo's sort of good at math and he nailed it but we wanted to be sure) And we saved a lot of $$$ because we hired an irrigation contractor to install the system, but we bought and supplied all the materials.

BTW, when I told one of the irrigation designers we were talking to how I wanted things sized based on my irrigation scheduling plans, deep and infrequent, his reply was “no one waters that way anymore”...along with a few other things like “superintendents don’t know how to do that”…blah blah blah.

One thing I learned during the whole irrigation design, vendor selection, installation process…is everyone tries to get you to dumb it down based on some fear that some supt will not know how to use the system. A sad commentary.  


Good for you Don.  Way to stick to your principals.

Did you go with double, triple, or wall to wall irrigation?

How big of main line did you go with?

Troy Alderson

Troy Alderson

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 08:56:53 PM »
Our Toro system is about 6 years old.  The weather station that measures the ET etc would over water every time if left to its own programming.  The superintendent has used all of the control to turn the water down, not up.  

Last few areas giving him trouble are areas where trees and shade are the issue.  

We are begining to have some parts issues.

WH,

The weather station may be using reference ET to determine crop water use, which is typically 40-50% higher than turf needs.  The superintendent is adjusting from reference ET and should be able to just reduce the reference ET by 40-50%.  I do not know if the weather station can be adjusted for turf ET.  The superintendent is using the system correctly though.  It's good to see less water used.

As Don said, before I read his post.

Troy Alderson
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 09:00:34 PM by Troy Alderson »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2007, 09:54:17 PM »
Jim,
I posted this thread a few weeks ago

Re:Has irrigation been good or bad for golf?

interesting answers.....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2007, 10:01:39 PM »
Mike Nuzzo and I designed the irrigation system at our new course in TX. We designed it partly because we could not find an irrigation designer who would do what we wanted.
We used fewer heads, and sized everything for a deep, infrequent schedule based on irrigating 1/3 or the golf course every 3rd day. Although our goal is more like irrigation once a week.
We have a state of the art control system...single head control, radio, palm, the best software, weather station,... because I wanted the best control I could get. But we saved great amounts of $$$ by insisting on the design we both believed in. We're irrigating about 100 acres and we designed, and installed the system including a state of the art VFD pump station with filtration and fertigation for $650K. (well and power costs not included)

All our velocities are under 5ft/sec, and we operate the pump station at 90psi (most are well above that, but remember that lower pressure means more flow which means less $$$ spent on power) After we finished the design we had it reviewed by the manufactures’ engineers to make sure the math was correct. (Nuzzo's sort of good at math and he nailed it but we wanted to be sure) And we saved a lot of $$$ because we hired an irrigation contractor to install the system, but we bought and supplied all the materials.

BTW, when I told one of the irrigation designers we were talking to how I wanted things sized based on my irrigation scheduling plans, deep and infrequent, his reply was “no one waters that way anymore”...along with a few other things like “superintendents don’t know how to do that”…blah blah blah.

One thing I learned during the whole irrigation design, vendor selection, installation process…is everyone tries to get you to dumb it down based on some fear that some supt will not know how to use the system. A sad commentary.  



Don,
Yep...you did it the way it should be.....
Problem is if not careful you will have people telling you it can't be done and ........you don't do good work etc....I have seen it firsthand.....just yesterday had a 2 hour meeting with a "golf executive" that informed me I could not build a golf course for $4.5 mill......minimum would be 7.5 to beacceptable to him.....sad thing was i had jacked it to get to 4.5......probably should give him a deal at 6......
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don_Mahaffey

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2007, 10:10:10 PM »
Troy,
Some holes are triple, some double and some wall to wall...hows that for a useless answer? :)

Basically, we're growing a drought tolerant grass, bermuda, in a wet (45+ in/yr) humid environment. We didn't need the course to have wall to wall 60 ft spacing, lined with perimeter heads...which is close to what everyone is installing these days.
We just tried to design a system that fit our environment, and suited the course design. We may have underdesigned a bit, but I don't believe we did. The client is OK with the possibility of a little off color turf on the edges during long dry spells, so we did what we thought was right.

Our pump station is 1,800 GPM. Pump discharge line is 14 inch and it steps down from there. About 1/3 of the course is 8 inch, 1/3 is 6 inch, and the remainder is either large pipe near the pump station or 4 inch on the two holes farthest from the station.

 

Troy Alderson

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2007, 01:16:30 PM »
Never thought I'd say this, but thank goodness for old irrigation systems!  When I get a chance to build another course, I think the irrigation will be considered inadequate by today’s standards.  I’m beginning to believe the only way to stop courses from doing harm to themselves is by tying their proverbial watering arm behind their back.  The conditions at the new place are just great.  I love golden brown rough and appreciate the playing condition over the aesthetic more everyday.  Will water restrictions save golfers from their desires???

Cheers!

JT

Jim,

IMHO, water restrictions will bring golf back to what we at GCAtlas call the glory days of limited irrigation.  Water will be concentrated on greens and tees, fairways will be watered to keep the turf just alive.  But I do not think the turf will handle cart traffic if the turf is watered on the edge.  Carts brought on heavier irrigation practices to withstand the pressure and wear of cart tires.  The USA is not willing to give up carts.  Sooooo....we will have to water more heavily then the turf needs in order to manage under golf carts.

Turf varieties will allow for lower water use also, as will better aeration equipment and practices.

IMHO,
Troy

Troy Alderson

Re:The benefits of antiquity!
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2007, 12:40:56 PM »
Troy,
Some holes are triple, some double and some wall to wall...hows that for a useless answer? :)

Basically, we're growing a drought tolerant grass, bermuda, in a wet (45+ in/yr) humid environment. We didn't need the course to have wall to wall 60 ft spacing, lined with perimeter heads...which is close to what everyone is installing these days.
We just tried to design a system that fit our environment, and suited the course design. We may have underdesigned a bit, but I don't believe we did. The client is OK with the possibility of a little off color turf on the edges during long dry spells, so we did what we thought was right.

Our pump station is 1,800 GPM. Pump discharge line is 14 inch and it steps down from there. About 1/3 of the course is 8 inch, 1/3 is 6 inch, and the remainder is either large pipe near the pump station or 4 inch on the two holes farthest from the station.
 

Don,

It definately sounds like you fit the irrigation system to the needs of the land and hole layout, not sticking with every hole being the same.

I will hire you as a consulting irrigation designer when I have my own golf course. ;)

Troy

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