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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« on: June 28, 2007, 09:21:51 PM »
I was talking with someone a few weeks ago about this new "phenomenon" of sorts. I can't even imagine shaping a golf course with a GPS-guided blade, but I understand this methodology is becoming more and more common.

I don't know enough about it to completely dismiss the method. But it sure seems like spontaneous artistry and capitalizing on previously unforeseen opportunities are out the window where 'dozer blades are reading and accurately interpreting grading plans drawn in an office far from the golf course site.

I guess my question is, who's utilizing this technology? And, if there's anyone who participates at this discussion group doing so, could you enlighten us?
jeffmingay.com

Don_Mahaffey

Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2007, 09:51:22 PM »
Jeff, Could you imagine what it would be like to use GPS on the blade when you’re working heavy soils.
They ribbon up, you need to know when to lighten up, and when to dig a bit. Shapes happen because you sort of push it into a pile, compact, and then carve out. How is a GPS going to work in that medium?
And what about sand? We love our links courses because of all the little bumps and humps. The only way I see a GPS operating blade working is with a light, course soil that flows easily off the blade. But, then you lose all chance for improvisation and all the data better be dead nuts or you've got too much, or too little material on your blade.
I know some think this is the next great thing, but count me in as extremely skeptical.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 10:00:25 PM »
Not surprisingly, we seem to be on the same page, Don  :)
jeffmingay.com

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 10:03:44 PM »
Jeff,

I think it has some merit for large scale material moving. But for the type of finish shaping we tend to lean towards, it wouldn't be practical. As you and Don have pointed out, the little work is too spontaneous for a computer generated data set to accomplish.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Zarlengo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 11:33:31 PM »
Would make the surveying/ staking part of my job obsolete.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2007, 11:37:20 PM »
I don't know a lot about it but if you are interested in looking up stuff, I believe Graham Marsh does it and "Growling Frog" was the first Australian course to be constructed entirely from this method.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 01:27:06 AM »
Yeah marshy uses a construction Mob called mcMahon's a lot and they even have the GPS hooked up to their smaller machines. I'm led to believe they even use if for the fine work of green construction.

We sometimes feed the shaping plan data into the GPS and the bulk earthworks produced...its a teriffic advantage for that side of things.

Then the GPS comes off and the fine work is done without.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 01:38:23 AM »
It seems it would only work if someone had perfect plans, and who has done that?

Perhaps as a platform to embellish later (large scale cuts and fills), but it seems a lot of artistry would/could be lost in the process if taken too far. It eliminates discovering as you're doing; seizing opportunities and running with them.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 01:39:51 AM by Tony Ristola »

jmorrison

Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 08:29:19 AM »
Good Day Jeff!

Hope all is well in Merritt, hopefully you guys are missing all the rain and snow ??? >:(
We actually have a 650 with a GPS unit on it. The operator really only uses during big cuts and fills, and when grading tees and greens (sizes and grades). Another helpful area is for cart paths.
I will agree it does get rid of alot of staking but it does put an emphasis on the architects drawings.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 04:01:50 PM »
Quote from csgolf.com : Today, SGI has lead the way in GPS driven grading & shaping based on the accuracy of their grading plans. "The technology today represents the opportunity to streamline the grading process to save time, money and increase the accuracy of the design concepts." The Grande Dunes Members Club, located in Myrtle Beach, was the first project to use this advanced technology. The design collaboration with Nick Price opened in May 2005.
http://www.csgolf.com/images/grade2.jpg

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 12:19:41 AM »
If they made it work really well so it reproduced the plans being fed to it very exactly it could be useful for replica holes.  You could build a copy of TOC with all the little bumps and folds exactly reproduced.  Or if you saw a great green somewhere you just need to use some sort of laser or radar scanner to copy it and reproduce it elsewhere.

I wonder when the first copyright lawsuit for a green will be filed?

I still think we'll see GPS guided mowers eventually, as it would really help cut people costs that will only keep increasing.  Without having drivers there would be a lot more freedom to design them differently for certain purposes -- small ones for going around trees or between greens and bunkers, slow moving battery operated ones for quietly mowing holes near housing all night long, etc.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2007, 08:17:07 AM »
"You could build a copy of TOC with all the little bumps and folds exactly reproduced."

Doug S.:  I'll pay you a million dollars the day they make a machine which can reproduce all the little bumps and folds on the Old Course at St. Andrews exactly.

Technology is great but there are limits.  You might as well write a computer program that can read the mind of God.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2007, 08:26:59 AM »
I am quite suprised that no one has built an exact copy of TOC. It would be easily possible to map it to 0.1 metre VI's and could be reproduced although it would be by more conventional construction methods perhaps, almost like rebuilding an existing green to former levels. Does a detailed map of the TOC exist?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Greg Cameron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2007, 08:57:53 AM »
  Jeff,here is good article featured in summer/2006 of Finnings "Tracks and Treads"
http://www.finning.ca/home/publications/tnt/pastissues.asp
  page 18, interesting read......Greg

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2007, 12:16:41 PM »
"Technology is great but there are limits.  You might as well write a computer program that can read the mind of God. " ~Tom Doak.

MIGHT BE THE BEST QUOTE I HAVE READ ON THIS SIGHT.  


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2007, 01:31:18 PM »
Anyone who wholesales the notion that GPS cannot assist in golf construction is hiding their head in the sand.

Certainly many fine aspects of courses occur with field work. In fact, nearly all of the classic and great courses were a product of field work, usually based off of a well planned routing (plan.)

But...the fact is that visualization of highly accurate mapping of sites, and visualization of highly acurate digital models, will (is) changing the way golf design will unfold. I am not preperaed to say this is here, nor may it be ready for the next decade. What I can attest is that the ability to see (accurately) every bump and nuance of a site is nearly here — and the ability to mold the ground in just as much accuracy and detail is quick to follow. In essence, a designer could create a course and see it in amazing virtual detail without ever touching equipment to ground. (Not yet, but "soon".)

As for blade-guided GPS...



We used one D-8 to clear fairways and rough shape greens at the Links at Las Palomas. Our shaper had a blade mounted GPS and a cab-equipped screen with our routing plan and target grades for greens. I say "target" because we only had rough green plans that were concepts — nothing final until we cleared and saw what we had in more clarity.

The shaper used the GPS (mainly) to know where is was in relation to the routing plan. This saved on staking. Most of the shaping in dunes areas ignored the GPS — but in areas we did shift a bunch of sand (flat areas) we used the D-8 to know how high or low we had gone. It was very quick and saved personnel.

At greens the shaper often referred to the blade data to check subtle elevations on rough work. That also saved personnel and was deadly accurate.

Our primary problem was that — for whatever reason — from 2:00pm to 4:00pm we had to satellite signal. Trimball could never figure out why. They sent representatives who said it was "impossible".

My point is that technology is moving. Not always forward, but moving. I agree that technology (such as this) does not guarantee better design, but in the right hands it will eventually produce interesting results. At present it is a matter of using the elements of the technology that make sense. Just as a computer in the hands of a writer or artist can[/b] produce great and creative results.

One can compare GCA iteself...does this technology necessarily ruin discussion about golf design? I think not.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 01:34:53 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Peter Zarlengo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2007, 02:05:00 PM »
Forrest-
I GPS the as-built drainage and irrigation lines on the course I am working on this summer. I cant use the hand-held devicde for about a twenty minute window in the afternoon. The problem is that I cannot acquire enough satellites to get an acurate postion.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2007, 02:12:58 PM »
Forrest:

I'm sure there are lots of people who could produce "interesting" results.  But have you ever met anyone who's good enough to draw a grading plan to produce contours which appear entirely natural?

Clyde Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2007, 02:33:58 PM »
Tom Doak is right that it's doubtful that anyone could draw something that would turn out natural looking in the field.

I have had only one experience with the GPS driven equipment and it was with a general contractor who had little experience in golf construction. As a result the rough earthwork was good enough that the finish crews did not have to move a lot of dirt, only what I directed in field. The biggest problem was the difference between the aerial photogrammetric topo and the real site grades, which didn't work very well when tieing back into natural grades.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2007, 05:27:40 PM »
Jeff
Haven't you read my article in SAGCA 9?
Please remember I had a litle something to do with those satellites.
cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2007, 06:23:37 PM »
Tom D. — Not yet.

I think the day will come when design can — and will — happen in very real ways using technology. It would make no sense to push and adjust material in real time and with real energy if there were a substitute to do so in a virtual way. That "way" will be here before we know it.

Just as the "way" to prove the exact finished design of any of the work of architects who contribute here is now afforded with technology that enables us to document with amazing results each and every detail of a course forever and ever and ever. (Maybe good...maybe bad....but, if we had that for 90% of the discussions here [old courses] there would be, err, no reason to discuss much at all!)


— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2007, 09:48:15 PM »
Jeff - Do you know anyone connected with Coco Construction, currently doing the 401 3-lane expansion??  If so you might give them a call and find out exactly how they use the GPS on their dozers and graders.

Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2007, 11:15:51 PM »
Clyde,

Welcome to the group.  I, for one, will look forward to your comments and postings here as we can always use more viewpoints from experienced architects such as yourself.

The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2007, 02:35:07 AM »
This thread interests me because I have been feeling the need to experiment with new technology beyond what I have been able to utilize in the past....let me explain.

I used to analyze a site using a topo map and site reconnaissance...and it usually worked well, especially if I was able to spend enough time on site.

Well I got the idea late one night to mount the GPS guided instruments to one of my old biking helmets and then link this with my new Voda Phone lap top computer system and take it to the field [I know this probably conjures images of Wayne in 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids'....but nonetheless].

Well I need to tell you that when I am on certain sites with this setup it seems that I can just dive in 3D through contours with ease....I can explore the ground internally and externally where I previously could not imagine while staring at something sitting two dimensionally on a drawing board!

Well...my secret is out....but I don't mind sharing it with my friends...so I'm not going to bother with any patent hassles.

Enjoy.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Clyde Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:GPS-guided 'dozer blades
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2007, 07:53:03 AM »
Neal: Thanks for the welcome - I look forward to participating.

Paul Crowley: You can't be serious! Now you have to get Dawn to take a picture of this setup of yours and share it here on GCA.

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