next »

[A.G._Crockett]

Doug,
I really don't care about the long putter being outlawed; I do find it hilarious that Shivas is able to make the arguments that he does FOR it and AGAINST a tiny line on a ball, but that's just me.

I think, though, that the answer to your questions is that the split hands AND the anchoring of the top hand are significantly different than the way that we go about making any other stroke in the game.  

That said, the belly putter actually bothers me more, though I have used it in the past.  

[A.G._Crockett]

Sorry to disappoint you, A.G, if you like 'em tortured.

So I promise that I'll try harder next time to give you an original intent argument that is actually tortured....  

Shivas,
Don't sweat it; this one will do fine!

[Doug Sobieski]

Doug,
I do find it hilarious that Shivas is able to make the arguments that he does FOR it and AGAINST a tiny line on a ball, but that's just me.

A.G.,

I must admit, I also got a few chuckles out of Shiv's stance on the line, knowing that he putted with the long putter!!

Like you, I don't care one way or the other. However they set the Rules, I'll play by them. If they tell me to go back to a short putter, I will. And I'm sure I'll still be a good putter by any measure.    I've always been a good putter, but it's the current driver technology that has allowed me to play better now than I ever have in the past.

All the best,

Sobe

[Michael_Hendren]

Passing this along at the request of a non-member:

Having a bad back and unable to practice due to the stress of bending over a 36" putter, I switched to the "long putter."  Doing so allowed me to continue to enjoy the game.  

I love the competition of the game but have never won our club championship.  In fact know one with a long putter has ever won our club championship.  Lets think about this conundrum for a second!  How many PGA events have been won by long putters (1 in 100, 1 in 500)?  Any MAJORS?  These advantageous implements are not featured in any TV or magazine ads, are they............how good can they be?  

Given this, it would appear that the biggest advantage that I can see is that they I might get 3-4" of additional relief from a cart path now and then.  Hardly worth the debate, wouldn't you agree?

[John Keenan]

Michael

You post strikes a cord with me as I am home today with an extremely strained back. Pills ice and rest is what I am doing today oh yes  and looking at long putters on e-bay to help relieve the stress on my back when I am able to get back to playing. I have played with others that suffer with a bad back and they all felt the long putter helped quite a bit

John

[Doug Sobieski]

Passing this along at the request of a non-member:

Having a bad back and unable to practice due to the stress of bending over a 36" putter, I switched to the "long putter."  Doing so allowed me to continue to enjoy the game.  

I love the competition of the game but have never won our club championship.  In fact know one with a long putter has ever won our club championship.  Lets think about this conundrum for a second!  How many PGA events have been won by long putters (1 in 100, 1 in 500)?  Any MAJORS?  These advantageous implements are not featured in any TV or magazine ads, are they............how good can they be?  

Given this, it would appear that the biggest advantage that I can see is that they I might get 3-4" of additional relief from a cart path now and then.  Hardly worth the debate, wouldn't you agree?

Well put!

On an O/T note, Jim Abbott once threw a no-hitter while using his baseball glove on his throwing hand. By only using one hand, I think he had an unfair advantage, since it was a very unusual motion. I'm still trying to convince MLB to make that practice illegal. Can anyone help me with that?  

[Dschmidt]

No, not well put.  

They are extremely useful.  The fact that nobody uses them on Tour to win majors is not relevent.  You might as well argue that nobody in major league baseball has ever hit 50 homers with aluminum, so aluminum bats must not be all that much better.  

It's a different league!

The long putter is unbelievable in preventing a player from ginching 3-4-5 footers.  Some guys (including one I know very well) have a real problem with that.  

You will never catch me saying "oh, it's not that much better, so what's the diff?" because I simply know better.  It is better - for guys who ginch from short range.  Period.  Full stop.

My point is simply that making better clubs has been part of the game for as long as the game has existed. It's as much a part of the sport of golf as making better engines is to the sport of car racing.  

 

[Michael Moore]

I have been having great success with the "croquette" method.

Before each putt I grind up the ball with some salt cod and mashed potato, coat that in some bread crumbs, and deep fry.

Rolls great.

[Doug Sobieski]

No, not well put.  

Can't I stay on both sides of this fence  

It definitely has made things easier for me in competition. Given that I don't play much, I need that kind of crutch.

[Adam Clayman]

I think, though, that the answer to your questions is that the split hands AND the anchoring of the top hand are significantly different than the way that we go about making any other stroke in the game.  

 

A.G. - Apathy aside, I make strokes at balls with unconvetional grips all the time. Sometimes I even turm my back to the target and use one hand.

Just because it is different does not make it illegal.

[Steve Pieracci]

Am I missing something? Are people that putt with a long putter taking SOOOOOOOOOO many fewer putts that short putter people are getting mad?

I really don't understand this. Pat Mucci, is there data to support that guys with long putters are in fact holing more putts?  If the data is available, is that the reason Far Hills is discussing a ban?  Or are they against the croquet style stroke?  I would contend that it is the latter, since Far Hills has done nothing about the distance issue, and there is plenty of data on that topic.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

Thanks for avoiding the question.

Steve Pieracci,

The "issue" of the long putter has nothing to do with scoring.

If they didn't work better, would golfers use them ?

AG Crockett,

The difficulty with rules prohibiting attachment and split hands is the observation, analysis and enforcement of same.

If the handle was prohibited from touching the golfers body, and they were wearing a wind jacket and a gust blew such that the jacket came in contact with the handle, would that be a rules violation ?

With respect to the grip, some golfers use a baseball like grip, so how much seperation would be permissable ?

All of these issues lead to rule controversies.

Having the putter as the shortest club in the bag avoids the rules issues, dilemas and controversies.

As a consequence, it effectively eliminates the split grip and the attachment issue in the great majority of cases.

It's a simple solution.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

It is a serious question.

Your hesitancy to answer it would seem to reinforce a ban on the long putter.

[Steve Pieracci]

The long putter is unbelievable in preventing a player from ginching 3-4-5 footers.  Some guys (including one I know very well) have a real problem with that.  

You will never catch me saying "oh, it's not that much better, so what's the diff?" because I simply know better.  It is better - for guys who ginch from short range.  Period.  Full stop.  

Pat,
According to Shivas, long putters work better.  Period.  If something is working better for me, then it means I am scoring better.  What does "working better" mean to you?

[Dschmidt]

It's not a question of long putter people holing more putts than short putter people.

It's a question of long putter people holing more putts than they otherwise would have, given their relative inadequacy with the short putter.

There is a big difference between those two comparisons.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

The long putter is a crutch for lack of skill-----far, far more than some line on a golf ball is a crutch for lack of skill.

By the way, your hypocrisy is now virtually total. You condemn a line on a golf ball as counter to the Rules and the spirit of the game because you happen not to use it. You accuse people who do use it even if it is within the Rules as cheaters.

At the same time you give a total pass to long putters even if any intelligent mind knows they're a complete crutch to lack of skill.

Apparently you do this simply because you happen to use a long putter.

I hope in the coming year you are beset by the worse form of long putter YIPS (this, by the way, is a total full-body twitch as opposed to a arms and hands twitch with a conventional putter) and that you are constantly forced to play with opponents and fellow competitors who all use a line on a golf ball and take two minutes per putt to indicate the line for their putting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The long putter is unbelievable in preventing a player from ginching 3-4-5 footers.  Some guys (including one I know very well) have a real problem with that.  

You will never catch me saying "oh, it's not that much better, so what's the diff?" because I simply know better.  It is better - for guys who ginch from short range.  Period.  Full stop.  

Pat,
According to Shivas, long putters work better.  Period.  If something is working better for me, then it means I am scoring better.  What does "working better" mean to you?

Peter Pieracci,

I've learned that the phrase "working better" means and is solely contexted in the limited confines of one week ..... at best.

As I said, if it didn't work, golfers wouldn't use it.

[Dschmidt]

Shivas:

The long putter is a crutch for lack of skill-----far, far more than some line on a golf ball is a crutch for lack of skill.

By the way, your hypocrisy is now virtually total. You condemn a line on a golf ball as counter to the Rules and the spirit of the game because you happen not to use it. You accuse people who do use it even if it is within the Rules as cheaters.

At the same time you give a total pass to long putters even if any intelligent mind knows they're a complete crutch to lack of skill.

Apparently you do this simply because you happen to use a long putter.

I hope in the coming year you are beset by the worse form of long putter YIPS and that you are constantly forced to play with opponents and fellow competitors who all use a line on a golf ball and take two minutes per putt to indicate the line for their putting.

Tom, everything you said was completely, totally, one million percent true...except for the hypocricy part (which I'll get to...).

You've told me not to call a practice cheating when in fact it's not - despite the fact that it's perfectly clear to any sane man that the practice is NOT cheating under the Rules of the Game, as currently interpreted by the people that have copies of the Tufts Book -- at least until Mucci gets through with them.[/i]  

You noted with great specificity that the word "cheat" is not in the Rules.

Well, I would note to you that the word "crutch" is not in the Rules, either.  

And there is very good reason for that, too.  And I'll tell you what that reason is:  Golf is ALL ABOUT CRUTCHES.  

Practically everything everyone does on a golf course is a crutch of some sort, is it not?  

What is golf but a complex recipe of crutches and mini-crutches designed to get the job done?  

You're not calling for the outlaw of crutches in golf, are you?  If so, you're basically calling for the outlaw of the game itself!

So be careful about calling for the outlaw of one crutch, while permitting other crutches to remain legal -- lest you be accused of hypocricy!

It seems to me that smoking on the golf course during competition is a crutch, is it not?

You're not changing your position on smoking on the course, are you??  


There is no hypocricy involved in my positions at all.  I think you should have chosen your words more carefully.  To be a hypocrite, I'd need to (A) use the cheater line while (B) railing against it or (C) bemoan the long putter (D) while using it.  

What you probably meant to say is that the positions are, at least in your opinion, logically inconsistent with each other.  Unfortunately, that's not the case, in my view.  I think they are logically consistent, for the reasons I've previously explained.  And if you persist, I'll have to remind you that calling for a ban of the long putter because it's a "crutch" is logically inconsistent with defending smoking on the golf course despite the fact that it's a crutch too.  

   

[TEPaul]

"Well, I would note to you that the word "crutch" is not in the Rules, either.  
And there is very good reason for that, too.  And I'll tell you what that reason is:  Golf is ALL ABOUT CRUTCHES."


Shivas:

Oh I see. Does it then follow that a line on a golf ball is a crutch?

If so, why are you calling for the banning of it?