Chambers Bay Teasers

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Oh Sean I have not been on because I had a state mid am qualifier on Monday. Sadly enough I made it playing like I did with you and Mike on Friday. lol Louisiana golf is not doing well if I made it to the dance playing like that. Of course it was hotter than hell and so wet the course was lift clean and place from tee to green. I went through 4 gloves and 5 towels during the round. lol

[John Kirk]

Briefly...

Lots of good holes. most of which turn.  Great variety, too.  A very good collection.

Great views looking out onto the Sound.  Views looking around the quarry are less attractive.

Pure fescue surfaces were a joy to play the game on.  The greens were slower than we're used to, but plenty fast for enjoyable golf.  However, there are lots of clover and other invading weeds.  The scotch broom (like gorse without the thorns) is of particular concern.  I am concerned about the long term maintenance of the course, and their ability to keep the weeds out of there.

A demanding walk.  The walks from 3 to 4 and 9 to 10 were pretty long.  The course took a long time to play, despite being set up easy for weekend play.

Well worth playing.  My favorite holes were 1, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16.

[Bob Jenkins]

Great pics, Aidan! Having only played Chambers on GCA day off matts, I cannot wait to get back in the fall. It is a fabulous course and as has been said here before, likely the most exciting, interesting and challenging new course in North America this year.

I loved your camera work eliminating the pot bunker on 15. Maybe someday, far in the future, technology will allow architects to change holes day to day, take out the pot bunker at 15 on Chambers Bay on Monday and then slide it back in on Tuesday. It will be possible to move tees to the side to change the angles or back and forth. Got a charity shotgun that day? Move the tees up on rails and set the pins in the center of punchbowls and you will have lots of happy people.

Thanks again.!!!

[Jon Wiggett]

Pictures look great and I am sure the course will look even better when it is fully grown in. It does seem to me however that they have failed to meld the surrounds into the playing areas which makes the course look manufactured.

Melding is perhaps the single most important reason why TD courses usually have that wow factor or why KB links has it. I think that where a good shaper makes his biggest contribution is in this area.

Also, although it seems clear to me that the theme was links golf through the dunes, the bunkering doesn't seem to fit a links making it look odd. I am sure however it will play great and maybe on the ground it will also look better.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jon I am not sure it is possible to meld this course into the surrounds. The area south of the course will be a park. I think they got alot out of a tough site. I do agree T Doak does a great job in this area.

[Garland Bayley]

...

A demanding walk.  The walks from 3 to 4 and 9 to 10 were pretty long.  The course took a long time to play, despite being set up easy for weekend play.

...

I don't get this. I was seriously under the weather when I was there, and I found nothing demanding about the walk.

However, the walk from 9 to 10 was short compared to my home course.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do agree with John the walk up from 3 to 4 had me puffing but I did not find the course to be a tough walk either. 9 to 10 was ok being downhill and all. lol I am also concerned or maybe perplexed is the word about pace of play as well. It should not take over 4 hours to play that course. It seems to be a 5 hour play for most.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Although I loved the course, my round 10 days ago took 5 1/2 hours.  It was entirely due to the 3 (strangers) I played with.  They knew nothing about proper pace, not to mention they all were mid-to-high handicappers hitting from all sorts of places, often.  None of them were used to walking, either (the hills got to them, though none of them carried).  The one guy's caddie didn't seem to mind that we were several holes behind (probably didn't want to piss off his player).

I constantly was trying to subtly push things, but also didn't want to get anyone mad.  The one guy marked all putts left, even under 18 inches, instead of tapping them in or putting out.  I started "that's good"-ing him later in the round hitting the ball back.

None of us were used to 'slow' greens, as we struggled to hit putts hard enough for awhile.

As I got to the course late due to an overturned moving truck on I-5, I joined the 3 of them on #3, where they were already behind.  At least I got to whiz through #1 and 2 afterwards by myself.

A staff member of the club asked me how the pace was going when we finished #12 (I thought he was going to point out the gap in front of us) and I said beyond earshot of the others: "Slow, but not because of anyone in front of us."

The unfortunate thing is that only on less than 25% of the time was the group behind us waiting on us.

[Sean Leary]

I do agree with John the walk up from 3 to 4 had me puffing but I did not find the course to be a tough walk either. 9 to 10 was ok being downhill and all. lol I am also concerned or maybe perplexed is the word about pace of play as well. It should not take over 4 hours to play that course. It seems to be a 5 hour play for most.

Lotta extra weight with all those logos...

The walk isn't ideal, but it isn't much different from what you see at many golf courses. I think what Tiger is meaning is that they all this room to sculpt holes so to speak, so why would you have walks such as this when you could put the holes anywhere.

I really liked the course.  One thing I found a bit odd was how many greensites were built with slopes on the side that propel the ball toward the hole.  I found myself nevr aiming at greens, just somewhere to the side and let gravity bring the ball in.  It can be fun having those sideboards, but it may be a bit much in terms of how many of the holes had them...

Our round on Saturday took 5 and a half as well. Seemed to really back up on the shortish par 5's and 12 which was drivable.

[Joe Hancock]

Lotta extra weight with all those logos...

Had me in stitches.....

Joe

[John Kirk]

Another problem to be rectified is poor bunker grooming.  Both Sean and Mike had impossible shots out of footprints on the 10th hole.  The waste areas were really treacherous, in terms of bad lies.  The bunkers looked like they received inadequate attention, but it's early in the game.

Also, like many high-end public courses I've seen, nobody seems to repair their ballmarks.  Every hole already featured dozens of pockmarks.  They should encourage players to repair two marks, whether they find their own or not.

I thought it was a pretty long and demanding walk.  The green to tee walks were never short, and sometimes long.

Great holes, though.  Whaddaya think?  Maybe a Doak 7, if they take good care of the place.  Easily a Doak 6.  

[Pete_Pittock]

When at Chambers Bay we were told greenside bunkers would get daily maintenance but others would get less upkeep (weekly and monthly) depending on playage.

[Daryl David]

I will get my look on the 23rd and am anxious to form my own opinion.  I can't remember a course with this much hype early on. A  few friends have played it have been less enthusiastic just due to having expectations that were too high going in.  I have heard several comments along the lines of "hey it is fun, but its no Bandon or Pac Dunes.  

Also a thing that concerns me is that several people have lamented the pace of play.  It appears that 5 plus hours is becoming common place by the end of the day.  This is something that will have to be addressed quickly.  That kind of reputation will turn a lot of players away.  

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon I am not sure it is possible to meld this course into the surrounds. The area south of the course will be a park. I think they got alot out of a tough site. I do agree T Doak does a great job in this area.

Tiger,

I was thinking more about the dune areas around the fairways/playing areas and greens not being blended into each other . If you look at the pictures you can see that the ridges and hollows all stop by the edges of the playing areas. If you look at the photo (Overview with #14 green in left foreground) you see it really well. Lots of shadows on the edges of the playing area but non in the fairways. This would suggest to me that little or non of the outside movement has been taken inside the playing areas.

This is where TD does it so well. First the big views of the entire course must seem natural and afterwards the details. I think when your actually on the ground, and once it is fully grown in CB will soften in this respect. Your point about fitting into the area is also correct and that is a question of concept.

A further point is meeting the golfers expectations. Does the course look right. The golfer usually has a concept on how he/she thinks a course should look. TD's Renaissance Course in East Lothian is a case for me. The course is perfectly blended into the land form around it, looks fantastic and I am sure will play even better. I however found it looked a little unusual as it seemed to be a links style course movement wise but was tree lined which is very un-links like. This is of course due to my expectations and I am looking forward to seeing it again because I am interested to see if I see beyond this point now that I know what to expect. It would be interesting to hear TD's views on such matters, or that of someone who has seen the course a few times.

[Jeff Doerr]

Does anyone know if they will still be building the three hole practice facility and driving range on the south side of the property?

[Garland Bayley]

Another problem to be rectified is poor bunker grooming.  Both Sean and Mike had impossible shots out of footprints on the 10th hole. ...

I thought it was a pretty long and demanding walk.  The green to tee walks were never short, and sometimes long.

...

Were the bunker problems greenside at #10?

I still don't get the "long and demanding walk". My recollection of Pumpkin Ridge is that it is a similar walk.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jon hmmm I thought the greens for the most part did work very well with the surrounding areas. Interesting though, I did note during the round the exact area you are talking about needing more definition and dunes. I am not sure how to compare this to many courses except other quarry courses or cousins like Whistling Straits. I think CB competes very well within its own category.

[John Kirk]

One of the footprints was greenside, another in a waste area just a few yards right of the fairway.  Lazy patrons can be blamed for much of the bunker grooming.  My jaded mind tells me players who pay $150 don't feel they have to help.

The walks at both Pumpkin Ridge courses are much easier, and much faster.  Ghost Creek is a little tougher than Witch Hollow, but both are easy walks.

[Mike Hendren]

Sean,

In fairness to Tiger, he only wears those heinous LSU shorts so he can park his rental in the handicapped space.

Bless his heart.

Mike

[Jon Wiggett]

Tiger,

Looking again at the greens I see what you mean, I think probably seeing them from a less elevated angle would make it easier to imagne. Thanks for the comments and it is always better to hear from people who have actually been at the course rather than seeing just photos.

[John_Conley]

Played there yesterday.

John Kirk- I'm with you on many matters.  I found it to be a very demanding walk.  The unkept areas are too severe of a penalty for a mishit, but this will likely change over time.  I said the same at the International course at Champions Gate when it opened, but two years later it played much better.

Garland - Are you nuts?  Consider almost anyone living in Florida, the nation's 4th most populous state, doesn't have a chance to walk when they play their home course and you still want to make that statement.  I'm lucky if I get to walk more than two rounds per year.  My legs are still burning from Chambers.  It is severely hilly, although such terrain may be the norm in those parts.  At least that is what my brother-in-law tells me.  If it is an easy walk, why was I out there for five hours?  Pace of play there is SLOW because the course is so demanding and features several long green-to-tee treks.

Overall I like it a lot, but probably not quite as much as Brad Klein in his recent review.  It affords many opportunities to hit cool shots careening along the ground and is not too bad to score on despite some challenging spots.  That said, you are pretty much X if you hit it into the footprints on holes like 4 (which I did).  

One strength is the amount of variety in the par 4s.  The 5s tend to play uphill and the 3s downhill, one way to route the course.

My biggest interest in this course will be to see how it fares financially.  My playing companions considered the rate to be very high for the market and were quite underwhelmed at the "view from above" upon arrival.  It obliterates the scale.  In order to reach their goals they will probably need to attract people nationally.  Will county residents be willing to play their weekly?  Can they count on a steady flow of people down from Seattle or up from Portland?  Or is it something people will pay to play once and then not go back to frequently?  Time will tell.

Anyone traveling in the area that likes golf should play it if $150 or so is in their budget.  However, I would like to know what the taxes for were for?  About 14% I think.  Wow.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jon you are welcome. Bogie, I somehow missed that one before. It is funny my Dad who watches the Tiger games from above now had a handicap parking pass which was against the stadium until they built the new luxury boxes but is still in a great location. I cannot find his credentials to get it and the 20th is the deadline. Geez what is a Tiger to do, have bad parking. I think not. lol I proudly wear my Tiger colors and outfits regularly as the season nears. It is 43 days to kickoff. I am already get the magazines in and mind ready to play. Thankfully is is Open week. The last great week of the summer before football season.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

John you have overstated the taxes.....they were only 13.8%!

The tax breaks down as 8.8% sales tax for the state and 5% entertainment tax for the city of University Place where Chambers actually sits.  I might say that these were quite a surprise for everyone here as well.  Many courses handle these in less obtrusive ways than the county and Kemper have decided.  

The walk doesn't seem all that bad to this somewhat out of shape 52 year old having now played it 4 times and walked it a fifth.  The trail encircling and going through the course is actually a much stiffer walk and wide enough to get the occasional aid car to stricken walkers. I don't believe any pedestrians have been hit by a golf ball.  

The next 18 months should be interesting to see if the locals will embrace the course for more than one play.  With The Home Course opening in the same market at less than 1/2 the cost, I wonder whether locals won't decide to go there or continue to take trips to Gold Mountain, Trophy Lake or any of the other good if not great alternatives.  

Ultimately, the county was forced to build this course to provide a spray field for their adjacent treatment plant and its effluent.  Some losses can be absorbed by the sewage ratepayers in the county.  Should the county require further spray area Ft Steilacoom golf course and Oakbrook G&CC (my home course) are very near and could provide further space for the county.  Actually, I have wondered why these cheaper alternatives were not considered first.  Oakbrook was never contacted concerning the treated effluent.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

John I am confused on the hard walk observation. John Kirk felt that way too. I am certainly no billy goat and did not find it a tough walk. The only tough between holes walk was 3 to 4 and that was less than 100 yards. 9 to 10 is flat and/or downhill. I guess the confusion comes when a younger man and a well traveled man from the area, who also is a member of a very good walking only course felt it is tough and this old fat Tiger from the flat land thought it was just fine. Heck my first round came after a 6 hour drive and no warmup. Hmm I guess I need to come play it again. what a treat that will be. Coz I am on the way back to Tacoma.

[Garland Bayley]

Played there yesterday.
...
Garland - Are you nuts?  Consider almost anyone living in Florida, the nation's 4th most populous state, doesn't have a chance to walk when they play their home course and you still want to make that statement.  I'm lucky if I get to walk more than two rounds per year.  My legs are still burning from Chambers.  It is severely hilly, although such terrain may be the norm in those parts.  At least that is what my brother-in-law tells me.  If it is an easy walk, why was I out there for five hours?  Pace of play there is SLOW because the course is so demanding and features several long green-to-tee treks.
...

I may be nuts, but the rest of the population is too sedentary. Chambers Bay is no tougher walk than my home course. The only thing I can figure about John Kirk is that he must have been breathless from the view.

I was amazed when I played Carter Plantation in LA (the state) which is basically flat and the cart ballers were wondering if I didn't think it was too demanding a walk. Let me repeat, "the rest of the population is too sedentary."

As for the pace of play. The alleged difficult terrain has nothing to do with that. As for long walks between holes, other than 9 to 10 which is typically longer in a returning nines routing, there are only two walks of any significance, one uphill on the front, and one downhill on the back.

I remember the walk uphill from I believe 3 to 4 at Pumpkin Ridge to be as demanding as the uphill walk on the front nine at Chambers. Pumpkin Ridge of course doesn't have returning nines so doesn't have the typical 9 to 10 walk.

As a 20 plus handicapper, I found it difficult to miss a fairway at Chambers Bay. Everywhere else except for Rustic Canyon I find it difficult to hit a fairway. I would suggest that if you take the risk at Chambers Bay and don't succeed you pay the penalty, because you are in a true hazard, not one that has been raked to perfection everyday by the overpriced grounds crew.

As far as people not having a chance to walk when they play their home course, they should demand better from their home course, or find a new home course.

Yes I am nuts!
 

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