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Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
On Thursday, 6/21, Chambers Bay hosted a Media Day event where local and national media members were invited to play the course before it opened to the public on the Saturday, which I was very fortunate to attend (as a guest of a local radio station).

It was an exciting event (at least for this average joe golfer) as all of the designers (including RTJ Jr), management, and the father of it all, John Ladenberg were there for a press conference in the morning and played some golf with all of the media members. I won’t bore you with the press conference details as much of what was said have been covered in previous articles and discussions here.

The highlight of my day (other than playing the amazing course itself – more on that later) was the lunch. I was just sitting there eating my sandwich when Robert Trent Jones Jr. sat right next to me to have his lunch. He was extremely generous and kind, and answered all of the questions I (and other table-mates) had for about 30 minutes.

Being a regular visitor on this Web site, I figured I would ask him some of the questions that has been floating around the boards here, mainly what does he think about people calling Chambers Bay “fake” and that it really is not a true links course. I could tell that that certainly touched a nerve and he indicated that he was quite aware of what bloggers and people on GolfClubAtlas have been saying about his latest creation. He also wanted me to make sure his answer was posted on GolfClubAtlas.

Robert Trent Jones Jr’s response was simple; play the course. He wants people to reserve talks about “fake course” or other comments until they have actually experienced the course for themselves. He is certainly proud of the course and believes strongly that the course speaks for itself.

He considers the “fake course” argument as a straw-man. As he put it, “As soon as you plant fescue on the sea-side dunes, you have modified the land. Back then, all they had were mules and ploughs. We have more tools available at hand, why shouldn’t we take full advantage of all the technology and resources that we have (to make the best possible golf course)?”.

He added, “There are three features that define links golf; maritime climate, land that leads to the open body of water, and firm playing surfaces. Chambers Bay has all of those features, so to say that it is not a (true) links course is absurd.”

I must say I agree with RTJ on all of those points. It is truly pointless to talk about what course is fake or not. You should enjoy golf courses for what they are. Who cares if you had to move a million cubic feet of dirt to do it? This is especially true when in the end, the result blends in naturally with its surroundings.

And Chambers Bay does that beautifully. When you walk/look at the course you feel like this place has always been just like this. It has that timeless qualities that most traditional links courses have. As others have said, the par 4’s are as good as can be found anywhere. In my opinion, the course is certainly superior to the two municipal courses with a US Open pedigree; Torrey Pines and Bethpage Black (I have played both). It is just as beautiful as Torrey Pines but Chambers Bay has much better variation of holes. It is just as epic as Bethpage Black, but it is far more scenic.

I believe one of the main reasons why some people have rated Chambers Bay a bit lower is this - the course plays easy. It’s slope is not very high and from the normal sand or blue tees, the course is certainly playable by average handicap golfers due to its wide open fairways. Ryan Moore, the PGA pro, remarked that a typical PGA pro will probably shoot 66 or 65 once the greens are running true. As Robert Trent Jones Sr once said, people don’t remember easy courses, I believe the fact that it does play a bit easier probably knocks it down a peg or two in some people’s minds.

But I think that is unfair as at least for Bethpage and Torrey, their main defenses are their length. And if people were forced to play Chambers Bay from where the white tees are on those courses (about 6800 yards), it probably would be more “memorable”. Thankfully, its tee distances are much more digestable for “normal golfers” and should allow the rounds go faster. However, that fact should not be used to knock down quality aspects of the course. I certainly believe that once the greens are running at their normal speed (9 to 10) and roughs are brought in, this course will be tough enough to host any major event.

Above all, I invite all golf aficionados to Chambers Bay. It is a must-see/play place for anyone who loves golf. I encourage you all to experience it for yourselves.

Peter_Herreid

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 08:41:01 PM »
Is it any wonder that some practicing GC architects think that we are "blog" full of guys with half-baked ideas!

Richard, I don't know you so I apologize in advance, but you were treated to a day of golf, apparently by your good fortune, at one of the most highly anticipated new municipal courses to open in years.  You found yourself the great fortune to be sitting next to the name architect at lunch, and the best you could come up with was to confront said name architect with allegations that some here on GCA considered his work at Chambers Bay "fake".

Is that really your takeaway message from the multiple threads about Chambers Bay so far, that the consensus is that we think the course is "fake", or not a real "links"?

To be blunt, what were you thinking and why did you feel it was your obligation to present your opinion as the consensus of a group Board?  In this instance, I think you grossly mis-characterized what you have been reading here...

More importantly, a more informed individual would have perhaps have related to RTJ Jr that the dominant opinion on here was one of excitement, and that there has been great enthusiasm about the Chambers Bay opening and potential.  His firm went to great efforts to host an event warmly attended by many GCA'ers in which his lead associate on the project led a well-informed tour of the course and answered hours of questions about the background and potential of the site...

Instead you decided to put the lead architect on the defensive, so that once again we would be mis-categorized as a group of uninformed, biased fools who have no idea what really goes on "on the ground", and no appreciation for what the project may have been aiming at...

Good work, Richard---I'll go back and try to find all those posts where the work at chambers Bay was written off as "fake"...

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 08:48:51 PM »
It seems to me that the real straw man here is the condensation of all of the previous discussion on GCA about Chambers Bay into some type of ultra-orthodox view of what constitutes a "links".

I think that's a completely unfair and erroneous over-simplification and seemingly indicative of someone who may have an axe to grind against some of the views expressed here.

In any case, it seems an oddly defensive first-ever GCA post.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:24:36 PM by MPCirba »

Mike Sweeney

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 09:00:17 PM »
I would be curious to know if anyone had played Bethpage, Erin Hills and Chambers Bay?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 09:17:34 PM »
I would be curious to know if anyone had played Bethpage, Erin Hills and Chambers Bay?

I think July 7th you will get that answer. We all anticpate Tiger playing and reporting. I know he recently played Erin Hills, and he is so well traveled I would think he has played Bethpage.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andy Troeger

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 09:18:27 PM »
Peter,
Where does Mr. Choi say anything about his question being a consensus or the dominant idea of the board? Certainly from what I have seen there have been a mixture of comments on here. I agree with you in that they certainly have been more positive than negative, but I haven't read everything.

Based on what Mr. Choi posted, it would appear that RTJ Jr was given the opportunity to answer some of the comments that have legitimately been made and he did so in a fair manner. I'm not sure I'd have asked the question, but there's nothing unfair about it in my mind. You appear to be reading something in to the post that does not exist at least to my eye.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 09:20:47 PM »
I thought most comments on GCA about CB have been VERY positive ...did I miss something?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 09:26:36 PM »
Perhaps Choi Shen Shen was misremembering the discussion where I labeled it a faux links to try to capture the idea that the dunes were not naturally formed. I did not mean to use the term in any pejorative way. I think anyone reading my posts know how highly I think of the Chambers Bay Links.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 09:35:48 PM »
Richard, I too am offended by your comments to RT Jones Jr. I sang a much different song to John Strawn today on the phone as we planned to get together when I come up next week. I am having trouble remembering one person on here who has seen or played the course that did not really like it or was blown away by it. The definition of links is lost on me as a worthy topic regarding CB. I will not even embrace the fake comment given it is well known the course was built from a Quarry. It is like you did not read one line from the pages of discussion on this much anticipated course. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion and to ask your own questions but to do so in the name of GCA is bush like irresponsibility. Garland thanks for the worldly observation but I only walked Bethpage Black. I am too lazy to camp out to get on. I would think Brad Klein has played all three.
I am sure there are others as well.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 09:39:00 PM »
One more thing, RTJ was very aware of GolfClubAtlas, so I doubt that I could have mis-reprensted any prevailing opinions around here.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 09:49:41 PM »
I too don't remember any negative comments from a single individual who actually visited the course.  Perhaps there might have been a stray coment based on a picture.

In the end the golf course will be judged on whether it has a full tee sheet and how it plays.  I believe that Kingsbarns followed the same model of creating a links from scratch and it has been a HUGE success.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 09:49:58 PM »
Richard,

Welcome to GolfClubAtlas.   ;D

Perhaps it's we who are overly-defensive, but simplifications and generalizations of diverse group opinions rarely shed any real light and often create blinding heat instead.

I can tell you on a personal level that I'm looking forward to playing RTJ Jr.'s course at Turning Stone in NY this coming August.   My previous experiences at his designs in MN and VA have been very positive.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:50:17 PM by MPCirba »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2007, 09:56:41 PM »
Thanks for the Welcome MP :)

You will enjoy yourself, I guarantee it. I cannot imagine a golf club aficianado who won't.

I have played it twice now and it is the kind of course where you learn something new every time you play it.

I have also played all 3 courses at Pacific Dunes and I would say Chambers Bay finishes close second to Pacific Dunes (I find it just a little more interesting and par 3's are superior). It is certainly better than Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:59:22 PM by Richard Choi »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2007, 10:05:15 PM »
Richard,

Glad to have you with us, I'm sure.  :)

Jump in, the water's fine.  

Mike

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2007, 08:46:03 AM »
I would think Whistling Straits and Kingsbarns are inspiration for anyone who is trying to creates a links style of play from scratch. CB will likely also be studied now as well. Richard, I too welcome you and hope I and others are over reacting to your initial comments.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 08:47:28 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2007, 08:53:11 AM »
Tiger:

In the categories of "creating true links conditions" and "creating a realistic links landscape", Kingsbarns is MUCH better than Whistling Straits.

Whistling Straits makes the lists more because it's a stronger championship venue and has more holes right on the water, but its "links cred" is not so high.

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2007, 09:14:16 AM »
Tom,

It would be interesting to see what you give Chambers Bay on your scale.

Maybe an 8?!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2007, 10:47:29 AM »
I'd like to know if Jay Blasi (sp?) would credit GCA.com with anything as it relates to the final outcome of CB?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2007, 10:59:19 AM »
Who cares if you had to move a million cubic feet of dirt to do it? This is especially true when in the end, the result blends in naturally with its surroundings.

Doesn't moving a lot of dirt greatly increase the cost of building a course?  Won't this sometimes force the course operators to charge more than what the market is willing to pay for green fees, thus leading to courses closing down or cutting maintenance costs (and therefore having poor conditions)?  I'm not saying in this case that will happen, but aren't there sensible, economic reasons to keep the amount of dirt moved down when possible?

I know it's really more complicated than that, but I imagine there are reasons to care how much dirt is moved.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 11:05:43 AM »
Tom it is funny you phrased it that way. I played Whistling Straits twice a few weeks backand noted to Dick Daley how soft it played. In fact there were alot of places you could not use the ground at all. It was a far reach from the expression firm and fast. I wondered if it was SR Open preparation or just how that course is. I have played Kingsbarns 4 times now and it always played like a links course. You may have answered that for me.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 11:07:14 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2007, 11:13:49 AM »
Andrew, Not if you want an outcome which is as close to perfect as one can attempt.

I've seen a few recent efforts that failed to move a requisite amount of dirt. The results were not good.

Considerig the reclaimed aspect of CB, the cost was likely already ridiculous. Sculpting a great course that will generate revenue in perpetuity justifies the additional costs, IMO.
 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2007, 11:52:40 AM »
As an impartial observer:

I would characterize GCA as a "true links"-defining endeavour, among other things.  I do think the discussion of Chambers Bay has touched on the "true links" question, as we are all quick to point out that these new waterside courses are not "true links" in the British Isle sense.

I don't think the "true links" definition discussion is in any way related to Chambers Bay specifically, any more than it was applied to WS, EH, Kingsbarns, or any other new dunescape course.

Other than that, the reviews/observations of Chambers Bay have seemed to be overwhelmingly positive.  I haven't seen "Chambers Bay is fake" as a criticism yet.  It is fake, and its uniqueness lies in what the land was developed into.  For me, that is a great thing.  I look forward to seeing it someday.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2007, 12:06:49 PM »
There's nothing surprising in RTJ Jr's response - that's the current way to address criticism: re-frame or mischaracterize your critic's argument to make it sound ridiculous.

It's become the time-honored tradition of damn near everyone, even on here, where the crowd is pretty intellectual; the few who respond thoughtfully to criticism, whether deserved or not, are indeed increasingly rare.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 12:08:16 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2007, 12:12:25 PM »
Nice observation George. Adam I doubt Jay reads this site within the framework you mentioned. Jay mentioned to me he reads on here and enjoys the site.

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Trent Jones Jr Answers "Chamber Bay is Fake" Question
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2007, 01:23:36 PM »
Andrew, Not if you want an outcome which is as close to perfect as one can attempt.

I've seen a few recent efforts that failed to move a requisite amount of dirt. The results were not good.

Considerig the reclaimed aspect of CB, the cost was likely already ridiculous. Sculpting a great course that will generate revenue in perpetuity justifies the additional costs, IMO.

I think each individual has their own idea of what a "perfect" golf course is.  As you say, the site plays a large role in what is possible there.  I am not making a judgement about Chambers Bay, because I've never seen it and don't know what was there before.  I was simply trying to point out that there is another side to the "who cares how much dirt you move" argument.

I recently read this quote in a book I was given.  It touches on moving dirt came and came about as close to what I think of as "perfect" as anything I've read on the subject.

Quote
Because the variety of landforms offered by nature far exceeds that conceivable by man, it is wise to let existing features, rather than those which could be artificially fashioned, guide the creative process.  This deferential approach often results in holes of singular character which are as distinctive as the land from which they were created.  Such broad consideration for and inclusion of natural features throughout the design process also serves to limit the scope of necessary disturbance to the native landscape.  This allows more creative effort to be focused on attention to detail, rather than diluting that effort across vast and far-flung areas of reconstruction.

I'm sure a good site is required for such a process to yield a good golf course.

Having quoted it, I should mention that this is from "Barnbougle Dunes ... The Beginnings" and is attributed to Brian Schneider from Renaissance Golf.  I highly recommend the book for its outstanding writing (as exemplified by that quote) and photographs.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

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