[Mike Nuzzo]

Now that we (with Mr. Cabrera's help) have nailed down once and for all that undulated greens bring two different classes of putters ever so closer together....

Does wind do the opposite - separate the better player from a less than better player?

[redanman]

Absolutely no question.  Wind makes the pretenders fold.  I always want 3-club winds early in the season for the GAP matches.  Tehn I drub 'em.

Seriously, on the professional level I think this is very true.  Teh fields often seperate when the wind comes up, you see two distributions of scores.

Rain, too.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I think it comes down to variability of conditions and the design of the course being played.

Does West Texas produce "automatically" better golfers?

Is the course designed for a wind? George peper wrote that his time in St Andrews led him to adapt, greatly improving his game there. But that game travelled to his home course in the US very poorly.

Wind may do the best job of separating mid from low handicaps. In the pro game, it's probably wind on inland courses not designed for it that does the best job. Maybe the third round of the US womens open in 98?

[Phil Benedict]

This may be a bit off point but the one thing I noticed about Tiger on the practice range is how much he varies his trajectory compared to the others.  The 2-iron stinger is the obvious example of this.  I think players who have variety should do better in tough conditions.

There also a point that Tom Watson always makes that the wind doesn't affect a well-struck shot so much.

I think wind separates the better players from the pack.

[Matthew Hunt]

Yes, because from my experiance single figure players will win with High Wind.

[Ted Kramer]

Yes. I can't think of a condition that will seperate the good players from the others quicker than a 2 club wind.

-Ted

[Steve Burrows]

I remember reading once that Hogan never liked to practice downwind.  Anyone can hit a shot downwind.  However, shots into a headwind or crosswinds are a different matter.  To hit quality shots in these conditions, shots that have the desired trajectory and go where the player is aiming (distance and direction), is one of the traits of a great ball striker, and, by extension, a great player.

[Greg Murphy]

Wind is an unequalizer, for sure. It separates those who can consistently  hit it pure—not necessarily crazy long or super straight—from those who can't. The player who pures shots time after time, even if a little bit off line, will manage in the wind. The player who makes less than pure contact even if on line, courts disaster on every shot. Wind exaggerates mistakes caused by less than pure contact.

I don't follow pro golf much, but Kapalua is known to get pretty windy and look at the list of winners there: Duval, Woods, Furyk, Garcia, Els, Appleby (x3) and Singh. Wouldn't they all be known for their pure ball striking ability (even if a little mis-aligned now and then)?

I believe, however, it is a myth that wind brings out creativity.

Greg Norman's final round in howling conditions en route to one of his Open Championships (sorry, don't remember which one but I think Langer was paired with him) has been called one of the finest final rounds in the history of the majors. Known as a swashbuckler, here's what Norman has to say about playing in the wind:

"Some of my colleagues on the pro circuit like to play shots that counter a wind - they'll try to figure out the wind speed and direction, then try to figure out how much cut or draw to put on a shot in order to negate the breeze and produce a straight ball. In my book, that's much too complicated. When you're playing in high wind, things are tough enough - adding complexity to your shot planning will just aggravate the situation.

There's only one reliable way to play a wind - ride it. On right-to-left winds, I'll aim to the right and let the ball drift back; on winds from the left I'll aim left and ride it in that way. It'll go farther and roll a bit more, but you should enjoy and use that help from Mother Nature rather than trying to cancel it with a fancy shot."

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'm not so sure anyone can hit a downwind shot depending on the hole and conditions...

I am thinking about my downwind shot on 13 at The Old Course.  I had a 70 yard pitch to get to the green - I hit a great low running drive over the hill past Walkinshaw bunker.
I hit a 50 yard pitch to a downslope just in front of the green and ran about 70 yards past the pin.

Playing out into the wind I was able to control many shots and was dropping balls on the greens like butterflies landing.


The wind seems to be something that is so positive to the treehouse due to the added interest it presents for each shot, and it also conflicts with golden age thoughts of trying to equalize players.

[George Pazin]

By Mr. Cabrera and his inestimable cadre on here's logic, wind brings far more luck into play, therefore it can only hurt better players.

 

Now me, I believe the opposite.

[Tom Huckaby]

Nice Bob Beamon-like leap of logic there, George.  I do like the term "inestimable cadre" though.




 

[Mike Wagner]

I believe, however, it is a myth that wind brings out creativity.

Greg:

Interesting belief.  I have my most fun playing in the wind creating shots you only experience once - that day.  I believe it's the purest form of the creative process, from thought to execution.  

You admit not following professional golf very much, but c'mon, the Mercedes is past champions- know any that DON'T pure it???

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Here's what Tom Kite said about a certain tough, windy course:

   Q.  You had talked about this course, is it possible that there may be too many variables here, I mean they're going to bring the PGA Championship here in a few years, is it possible that there's so many variables here that the week could go horribly wrong?
   TOM KITE:  Oh, it will go horribly wrong for some.  I can guarantee that.  Any time you play a golf course like this ?? but you know, the thing you have to understand is that a golf course like this separates the field.  We play a lot of golf courses with big greens, everybody shoots low.  Big wide fairways, everybody shoots low.  Nobody separates themselves.  I mean it's whoever makes a couple of putts.
   Here, you have a chance to really, if you put up a good score like what I shot today, or what Eduardo has had the first couple of days, you have a chance to really separate yourself from the field.  And you're unbelievably rewarded for being able to negotiate and get around that golf course, maneuver around that golf course and not have any disasters happen.
   I think with all ?? well, we would most of us would 20 times rather play a golf course like that, that separates the field than to play one that's just you know where everybody can shoot a good score.  You'll have some that will disagree with me, but quite honestly, I can assure you that the top players on our TOUR welcome golf courses like this.
   When you look ?? look at the leaderboard.  Those are the names you want up there.  You want to see Eduardo, you want to see Price, you want to see Crenshaw, you want to see the top players playing well in a tournament like this.

[Andy Troeger]

Wind creates different challenges. Some of it comes down to misc. factors such as experience playing in the wind (maybe growing up in a windy location), normal trajectory, ability to hit different types of shots. It changes the playing field and that plays to the strengths of different players sometimes.

Somebody who can hit it high probably has an advantage on a calm day, where as the low ball is better in the wind. Someone can do both well is the real player obviously.

To me there's no question that wind brings more chance/fortune/luck into play because it takes control out of the players hands (especially when its swirling or gusting).

[Greg Murphy]

Mike,

Wind can add interest because it demands more calculation than calm conditions. You can't just pick your target and hit to a yardage. If a person plays almost all their rounds on the same course wind can add some welcome variety.

I agree it is fun to dream up shots and pull them off. It is also fun to shoot low scores. I'm not sure how often the two coincide. It doesn't pay to get fancy or cute if the main concern is to shoot the lowest score possible. Good wind players, like Norman, know that the simpler you can make it the better your score is likely to be.

While it may be fun, on a shot by shot basis, without concern about total score, to play around with the wind, I'm not so sure how many players think it is fun to play in the wind. Where I come from it is windy a lot. Over the past couple months I've been asking everyone I play with or whom I know plays a fair amount of golf whether they enjoy playing in the wind. Everyone I asked said they hate it. With one exception.

Finally I ran into Keith Rever, former president of the RCGA. He claimed to love it. His story has got me re-thinking what kind of separation wind creates among golfers. In Canada we have ten provinces. Each year each province fields a team of its 4 best amateur golfers to compete against the other provinces for the Willington Cup. My province of Saskatchewan, with a population of less than a million people, is never in contention for the Cup and usually finishes near the bottom of the pack, but this year marks the 50th anniversary of the one time it came out on top. The event was held in our home province, the wind howled, and the home boys came out on top by more than 20 strokes! Keith was part of that team.

I wonder did the wind really separate the best from the merely good, when the home team would have stood virtually no chance of winning had it been calm?

Actually, Keith went on to qualify his answer (that he loved the wind) by saying that he "used to" love it, i.e., back in his competitve days when it gave him a competitive edge, but he no longer looks forward to playing in the wind.

I should also add a bit of a qualification. I'm sure most of those I asked would consider a club or two wind closer to calm than windy.

Greg

[Mike Wagner]

Greg,

You don't like the wind.  I don't like it every day, but enjoy it once in a while, embrace it as a new challenge, and love that it's a integral part of the game.

This is huge part of how it separates play on that given day.  Wind takes much more than the physical skill of opponents - it's absolute mental perseverance.  Of course it doesn't coincide with low scores - it's all about how your score compares with the field.  I think this discussion answers the original question.  It WILL separate the field -the ones that have imagination and mental toughness.  It will beat a frustrated, mechanical player any day of the week.

[Rich Goodale]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again.  The key to playing in the wind is to NOT change your swing.

I played last week on a very good links course in a 2-3 club wind with a young touring pro who hit the ball VERY high.  He hit it high downwind and high into the wind, and hit just about all the greens we played, mostly to within birdie putt range.

That's a pro.  The moment you or I get a brain fart such as:  "Oooh it's into the wind, I think I'll play the ball back, close the stance, open the face, choke down and try to hit a stinger." we are hopelessly lost.........

[Tony Ristola]

Now that we (with Mr. Cabrera's help) have nailed down once and for all that undulated greens bring two different classes of putters ever so closer together....

Does wind do the opposite - separate the better player from a less than better player?

I'll disagree with the Carbrera Premise, and agree with the premise of wind as an Identifier of a quality golfer. An individual who has tremendous ball control, imagination and shotmaking.

[Doug Siebert]

Richard,

Sure, a pro could do that because he's hitting it solid every time.  But most of us don't always hit the ball solid, and as I'm sure you well know a not so solid shot is going to be affected by the wind much more.  I don't really know the physics behind this, but it is certainly true.  I figure a 3 club wind is kind of the boundary between where you can play a normal shot hit solid and where you have to do something different -- at least with irons, with the modern driver you can hit 'em high into a gale and still get a good result.  If I'm hitting the ball poorly I'll sometimes play a "wind" shot even with a wind that's not even two clubs depending on the situation (especially with wedge approach)

I've always been a high ball hitter (the guys I was playing with at Lawsonia this weekend kept commenting on how high I hit my driver and my irons, especially the short irons and wedges)  So the wind should be a real problem for me in the conventional wisdom, but I've always fared better than most when its windy despite that.

Like you say, I don't change my swing trying to move the ball back in my stance or whatever.  I think that's actually counterproductive because you'll hit down on it more and give it more backspin which is the last thing you want into the wind.  I simply take more club (even beyond how many "clubs" the wind is) and don't get my hands higher than mid chest on either the backswing or follow through.  Less spin keeps the ball down a bit but more important takes the spin off it.  Its backspin that really kills you into the wind -- that's why the modern driver is so much easier to hit high into the wind, the ball's got no spin on it compared to what you had 10 years ago.

When I'm with the wind I'll sometimes do the same thing, because a really high ball that's got lots of backspin hit with the wind can sometimes go insane distances, and that's bad if you don't know what that distance is or aren't hitting it in the correct direction!  In a crosswind I don't fight things by trying to work the ball into the wind, I just gauge how much I think the ball will move due to the wind and compensate with aim.  Yeah, that means sometimes aiming over the water which some people tell me is very risky, but if the wind is coming in from the water I don't see how deliberately trying to work the ball TOWARDS the water to cancel the wind is at all less risky!

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