Fringe. In or out of green cavity?

[Yannick Pilon]

A super we are working with at a course where we are adding nine holes wants us to put the fringe of the green outside the green cavity.  His logic is that he does not want to lose valuable green space with his four feet fringe....

Another super we are working with is pulling his hair out because the same thing was done on some new greens on his course where he just started working....  Apparently, it is unmaintainable.

As anyone else seen or done this before?  What are the agronomic conscequences of doing this?

Should this be seen as a way of maximixing green space while lowering overall costs, or should this be seen as a big no-no that should be avoided at all costs for maintenance reasons?

For the record, we usually include the fringe in the green cavity, unless a club specifically asks us not to do it... which is rare.  Any input from other architects, supers or contractors will be appreciated!

Thanks.

YP

[Scott Witter]

Yannick:

I have always put the fringe in the cavity for it seems only logical for maintenance and playability reasons.  I think your 1st super is kidding himself...he will still lose green space to green creep over the years and I believe, from experience, that he will be able to manage his putting surface better with the fringe built with the same profile, and serving as a buffer to some degree as opposed to being right up against who knows what in subgrade material IMO.

During construction I have always figured my putting surfaces a bit larger to include the fringe and back it out during the grow-in process.  As you know, a lot can happen   between the interface of green cavity and the surrounding subgrade soils.  This issue becomes more of a potential problem with clay soils, probably most of what you and I build in, and much less of a concern with sites that are mostly sand where the putting surface materials are very similar to surrounds.

I do agree that it pushes costs a bit higher, but I believe the costs are justified and relatively minor in reality based on the long term play and maintenance benefit.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Yannick,
My perfect world would have no cavity at all, but reality is we build on heavy soils and need to import green material.
If you can afford it, I'd still like to see it built without the bath tub. Why not build the green and then feather out as far as your money will let you go. If that's not possible due to soil conditions or $$$, then yes, I would want the fringe within the cavity and I'd still do all I could to "feather” the cavity out and stay away from a hard edge.
I can't for the life of me see why anyone would want a vertical, hard edged cavity right to the edge of the green.
But, maybe I'm missing something and I'll listen if someone wants to try and convince me otherwise.