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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« on: June 25, 2007, 01:46:50 PM »
Ahhh, my pet peeve.  The plight of many Americans.  The cost of prescription drugs is too high.  I would debate this with my father all the way to his grave.  Why do I mention it now?  Turns out there are a few comments on the Chambers Bay thread that are identical.

Busses to Canada, AARP rallies, media frenzy - all directed toward those EVIL drug companies.  Sure, they don't help their case.  I strongly disagree with a "what the market will bear" mentality they use to price new drugs less in the 3rd World than here at home.  However, this much is true:

  * There are many drugs that are very inexpensive - in fact you can get bottles as low as 4 bucks at Wal-Mart in many states
  * The efficacy of higher priced, on-patent drugs is often no higher than the off-patent drugs they are developed to replace
  * Big Pharma is a collection of for-profit companies that operate in their interests and would not pour as much money into research and development if they were capped at low levels for the ultimate payoff

Anytime people complain about the cost of drugs, I suggest they consider cheaper drugs.  One state, I believe it is Oregon, had a Governor that was also an M.D.  He commissioned an exhaustive study to reduce payments for a budget item running amok - prescription drugs, probably under Worker's Comp or something.  The result?  The state was able to better allocate resources and sick people still get the meds they need.  (Just maybe not the meds they THINK they need because Pfizer or Merck is sponsoring a golf tournament and running ceaseless ads.)

Rather than blast the upscale golf courses, shouldn't we "vote with our feet"?  I rarely pay to play courses that embody the CCFAD trend of the last 15 years.  When I do, I ensure that I will get a "higher efficacy rate" to borrow from the drug analogy.  One look at Chambers Bay's photos told me I'd be happier playing there than anywhere my brother-in-law would line up.  I'm willing to pay the price.

I am as much a champion for affordable golf as anyone.  That said, there is a reason you don't see a lot of it coming online.  It isn't often a great business model.

(I suspect many here do "vote with their feet".  However, that will occasionally prevent you from seeing something noteworthy like Bethpage, Pinehurst, Pebble Beach, Bandon (once cheap), Pasatiempo, or even Chambers Bay.)

John Kavanaugh

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 02:00:04 PM »
I'm speechless.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 02:07:17 PM »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 02:29:11 PM »
Michael,

Enjoy it while you can. I'm certain it won't last long.  ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 02:29:33 PM »
I thought you were quoting the baby boomer of 2020.

TEPaul

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 02:42:10 PM »
"I am as much a champion for affordable golf as anyone."

So am I, John, but my reason is simply because I'm cheap. I definitely do not see why I should pay over $100 to play any golf course anywhere no matter how good people think it is.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 02:50:34 PM »
I am all for voting with your feet.  

It is sad yet true that we have a situation where folks that need certain meds to live a meaningful, or manageable life, but haven't the resources to buy the direct or are ridered out by insurance, or must pay astronomical premiums for high risk insurance, must play games and spend quite a bit just to jump the border to get the same or similarly effective meds in Canada.  

But your analogy with golf works only in some context while not applicable in other ways.  

People don't "need" to play golf to live, despite the obsessions we GCAers have.  ;)  Golf does not have an extortion factor over our lives.  If it does, we are sicker than I thought.

Golf, has the sort of concept that we can vote with our feet to find a comparable bang for the buck if we jump the border, so to speak.  Most areas of the country have their hidden gems where the golf is moderately priced, if we cross a few county or state lines to seek them out.  I can go to Lawsonia at twilight for a half tank of gas and a modest green fee, or Wild Horse for less than one round at Whistling Straits and get everybit as much golf effacacy to fix my golf obsession.  

As for Chambers Bay, I don't think that for profit money interests were lobbying the Tacoma or Pierce county council into the wee morning hours when no citizens were watching to pass a no-compete filthy money handout to the GCA firm, like congress did with the no-compete no negotiation provisions of the new drug provisions that went into effect last year.  Big golf development is big money to be sure, but there are still checks and balances, public hearings for zoning and permitting, and the pure market dynamics to keep it more honest than big Pharma.  

I for one don't see golf develompment as a filthy greed ridden system that holds the population of a nation or state hostage and practices extortion through graft and corrupt practices.  Golf is still a feet voting process.  

Yes, I do agree that voting with one's feet is the best thing to do, if you can and your life don't depend on it.  I voted with my feet at some discomfort at not playing Pac Dunes not too long ago for what I thought was over the top pricing.  
But, while I might bitch and make a point of saying so, I can live with it.  I go to Nebraska or Lawsonia as a viable market choice, and likewise I will go to Canada for meds.  But on that last point, it is a national disgrace that anyone should have to do so.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 02:58:57 PM »
John,

Well you have to like the price/course quality ratio we experienced Friday, no? ;)

I would just add that of 25 million golfers in the US, probably 20-23.5 Million vote with their feet every day of the year.  Most rounds are played with cost in mind.  Distance is the next factor, with 19 miles from home being the industry average.

The traveling gca affectionado is a rare breed.  Presumably, the market will equalize and as play at high end drops, so will new construction of same.

For most of those 20-23.5 MIl, its not all black and white.  Many can never play more than where they play for a $300 annual pass. Others get the nicer courses paid for through corporate outings every once in a while, or by friends.  Still othes reserve a course like Chambers Bay for a once a year outing that is truly special.

No real beef with your contention, its just that we have to realize how lucky we are to get around and golf as much as we do.  If we can afford the more than occaisional splurge on golf, why should we deny ourselves the pleasure?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

redanman

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 08:08:46 PM »
I'm speechless.  Here's JC, a money guy knocking the Pharma industry (Which really needs to implode, IMO).

If it weren't for Pharma what would be a positive manufacturing sector in the "good ole' US of A"?  Answer

Uhmmmmmm, errrrrr, that would be E  none of the above, Pat!

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 10:39:25 PM »
"I am as much a champion for affordable golf as anyone."

So am I, John, but my reason is simply because I'm cheap. I definitely do not see why I should pay over $100 to play any golf course anywhere no matter how good people think it is.

Tom Paul, the guest fee at many of the courses celebrated here is in excess of 100 dollars.  Why do they have to charge it if you sense public courses shouldn't?

Just curious.

Golf has never been a good sport for people without money.  My son is now very interested in hockey.  Someone has to pay for the rink.  I'm sure it will be me.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 10:58:41 PM »
John,

Well you have to like the price/course quality ratio we experienced Friday, no? ;)

I would just add that of 25 million golfers in the US, probably 20-23.5 Million vote with their feet every day of the year.  Most rounds are played with cost in mind.  Distance is the next factor, with 19 miles from home being the industry average.

The traveling gca affectionado is a rare breed.  Presumably, the market will equalize and as play at high end drops, so will new construction of same.

For most of those 20-23.5 MIl, its not all black and white.  Many can never play more than where they play for a $300 annual pass. Others get the nicer courses paid for through corporate outings every once in a while, or by friends.  Still othes reserve a course like Chambers Bay for a once a year outing that is truly special.

No real beef with your contention, its just that we have to realize how lucky we are to get around and golf as much as we do.  If we can afford the more than occaisional splurge on golf, why should we deny ourselves the pleasure?

Jeff:

Friday was terrific.  Thanks for coordinating.  I am optimistic I can find the map with my driver next time out.

I like that data you provide.  Most of the CCFAD construction was done with pro formas assuming they'd all get that first slice of the pie!

This isn't directed at you, but rather just some general comments to some that have replied.

* I'm not necessarily in favor of the construction of high-end daily-fee courses, but it does happen so I will consider them.  Whistling Straits, Pacific Dunes, and Kiawah's Ocean Course are all well over 100 bucks, all built in the past 15 years or so, and all terrific.  I think the world is a better place for having them.  (Never played any of them - haven't been to Kohler, Pacific wasn't there when I saw Bandon, and played somewhere else the one time I was in Charleston.)
* Owners of anything take business risk.  Do you really care if they fail?  If enough guys went broke it would stop.  Red Mike Ranch was a low priced course whose owner took it in the shorts.  I'm sure many learned a lesson.  Had it been wildly successful there would have been more imitators.
* I've opened as many low-priced daily fee courses as most of the people here that support their construction.  Hey, if it is where to be go build a few.
* Even the "low priced" courses are likely to start at $40 if they are built now.  Case in point is Wintonbury Hills.  Courses that are truly low priced (which I'd call under $30) are probably older.  Land is expensive.

John Kavanaugh

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 11:08:26 PM »
John,

Have you made one comment on this thread that is not cloaked in a lie?

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2007, 11:09:47 PM »
I'm speechless.

Praise God that your reaction hasn't rendered your fingers paralyzed.

John Kavanaugh

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2007, 11:14:24 PM »
Honestly...Who on this board pays retail for golf or meds?

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2007, 11:14:45 PM »
John,

Have you made one comment on this thread that is not cloaked in a lie?

Every comment.  Look the stuff up if you want about the Oregon Plan.  Pretty much the opposite of what Maine has done.

I have a tee time at Chambers Bay in a few weeks and my brother-in-law is charged with finding our 4th.  One on the board has offered to be our caddy and I think I'll take him up on the offer.

Businesses fail, even golf courses.  Many don't ever happen because of economic realities.  Some that come to mind are the one near Reynolds (was Doak going to be the architect of something called Harmony?) and RJ Daley's vision for something in the Sand Hills of Nebraska.

See, jaka, the nice thing about not lying is that I don't have to worry about the things I've posted.

John Kavanaugh

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2007, 11:17:43 PM »
John,

You have said twice that you are going to pay for your golf at Chamber's...Is this true or not?  Are you going to take money out of your wallet that you have already paid taxes on and shove it across the counter.  I seriously doubt it..I know I wouldn't.  I am above that kind of thing and I hope you are too...but I don't lie about it.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2007, 11:19:09 PM »
John:  the QC of the generics is a joke.  Do you have any freaking idea how many lives BBEP (big bad evil pharma) has saved?  How many it's prolonged?  

I do.  

And all they ask in return for saving your life (your own choice, mind you -- nobody MAKES you take their medicines!) is some green paper.  

Sounds like a great trade to me:  give up some green paper, and live in return.  I'll take that trade every second of every day of the rest of my life -- you know, that life being extended by BBEP...  

Shiv, it is important to remember that I'm on your side of the argument.  Rehashing reminds me of how much I miss my dad.  Anyway, when people complain about the cost of meds they are complaining about the cost of SOME  NEW  medications.  Once stuff is off patent there aren't as many problems.

I've been fortunate not to need a lot of medication in my life.  The odd thing is that so many people that take a lot of drugs say they feel a lot better if they can get off them.

Want to see something troublesome?  Spend an hour at a small pharmacy and watch how many people come in and address the pharmacist by name.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2007, 11:53:09 PM »
John,

You have said twice that you are going to pay for your golf at Chamber's...Is this true or not?  Are you going to take money out of your wallet that you have already paid taxes on and shove it across the counter.  I seriously doubt it..I know I wouldn't.  I am above that kind of thing and I hope you are too...but I don't lie about it.

Another difference between you and me.  

I'm not above paying the Chambers Bay green fee.  Definitely.  And this makes me.... what?  I'm puzzled.  Even Arnold Palmer didn't think he was 'above' paying a green fee according to the media account last year.  What exactly makes you above paying a green fee?

To answer your idiotic question, yes.  

I am very concerned about the reservation.  They are holding my credit card number and the price of four rounds is more than I care to flush now that I have no flow because our old house hasn't sold.

Unless something I don't know is in the works there is no way to play Chambers Bay without paying.  I'm not above that.

My round last week at Raven was something like $140 and some change.  Pretty steep if you ask me.  But I paid it.  I chose it over a day at the beach or pool with my family.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2007, 11:54:58 PM »
Not a fan of big pharma.

Big fan of golf, though.  Will be paying full fare at Chambers Bay on July 7th.

Jim Nugent

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 12:04:42 AM »
Quote
I strongly disagree with a "what the market will bear" mentality they use to price new drugs less in the 3rd World than here at home.  

I would agree a whole lot with "what the market will bear" mentality in medicine, except we don't have a free market in medicine.  We have a highly rigged market.  The barriers to entry are so high, so extreme, only a tiny, highly select group of suppliers can offer their product.  A classic case of oligopoly, with totally predictable results.  Don't know what points you and your father make in your debates, but this is the baseline explanation of why U.S. medicines (and health care) cost so much.  

Golf course expense -- I don't know much about that.  Do most U.S. golf courses make tons of money, when all is said and done?  Was under the impression, from what I read on this site, that the opposite is true.  

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2007, 12:24:21 AM »
Quote

I would agree a whole lot with "what the market will bear" mentality in medicine, except we don't have a free market in medicine.  We have a highly rigged market.  

Jim, when Merck wants to recoup the cost of R&D they expect the United States to bear the load.  Drugs are sold cheaper in Canada because they have caps.  Lobbyists in the U.S. work hard to protect the drug companies.  I think there should be more equitable ways of covering the R&D.  Like Shiv says, it is essential.

This isn't what the board is about, but I did feel you deserved a clarification of my thoughts.

I would hate to get into this again becasue it is a very complex argument.  In summary, I like the Oregon Plan and wish the nation would adopt it.  This would reduce the scrips being written for expensive drugs that aren't more effective than the oldies but goodies.  A lot of old medicine still works.  Aspirin, tetracycline, penicilin.  Some of the new stuff that was loved got pulled anyhow.

Jim Nugent

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2007, 03:17:58 AM »
John, we can argue the merits of the system.  Probably few here other than maybe Lou Duran take my side of that argument.  The economic reality is as I described it, though -- nothing close to a free market -- and that is why our only options are high-priced medicines and health care.  

redanman

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2007, 08:38:11 AM »
John:  the QC of the generics is a joke.  Do you have any freaking idea how many lives BBEP (big bad evil pharma) has saved?  How many it's prolonged?  

I do.  

And all they ask in return for saving your life


Shiv

Try BEING healthy (Very hard in the US, BTW), it's cheaper and more effective in the long run.

Prolongation of life is perhaps another story, but don't forget how many of those lives are there at their own volition?

Sure, some diseases are inherited or genetically predisposed, but "The American Work Ethic" is counterproductive to good health.  And now?  USA solidly on its way to being a fifth rate power.

Pharmaceutical products bear a very poor cost benefit ratio (to mean very high cost for litlle benefit).

Shivas, please tell us about the benefits and risk of polypharmacy, not just in the elderly, but the well-heeled middle ager as well. Try to write at least 10-15 words about the first part.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 08:40:45 AM by W.Vostinak »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2007, 08:53:44 AM »
By ALEX BERENSON
Published: November 6, 2006
For big drug companies, the new Medicare prescription benefit is proving to be a financial windfall larger than even the most optimistic Wall Street analysts had predicted.

But those gains may come back to haunt drug makers if Democrats take control of Congress this week.

Democrats, who have long charged that the drug industry is profiteering at taxpayers’ expense, say they want to introduce legislation to revoke the law that bars Medicare from negotiating prices directly with drug makers like Pfizer for the medicines it buys.

Medicare now pays for drugs indirectly, through the private insurers that administer the prescription program — and those insurers typically pay higher prices than government agencies, like the Veterans Administration, that buy medicines directly from drug makers.

The government is expected to spend at least $31 billion this year on the drug benefit, which provides partial drug coverage for people over age 65, according to the federal agency that runs Medicare. Next year, the program is expected to cost almost $50 billion — almost 20 percent of overall American drug spending.

Democrats say that directly negotiating with drug makers could save taxpayers tens of billions of dollars annually, though some independent analysts say those projections are probably exaggerated.

Republicans, and the pharmaceutical industry, say that the benefit program is working and has cost less than initially projected. More than 38 million Medicare beneficiaries are enrolled in the program, and most say they are satisfied with their coverage, said Michael O. Leavitt, the secretary of health and human services.

“It’s very clearly working,” Mr. Leavitt said. “We now have 90 percent of seniors in this country who have prescription drug coverage.”

But Wall Street analysts say they have little doubt that the benefit program, called Part D, has helped several big drug makers report record profits and exceed earnings forecasts made earlier in the year.

Companies have raised prices on many top-selling medicines by 6 percent or more this year, double the overall inflation rate. In some cases, drug makers have received price increases of as much as 20 percent for medicines that the government was already buying for people covered under the Medicaid program for the indigent. Medicare also pays more than the Veterans Administration, which runs its own benefit program.

“Part D was a good thing for almost everybody,” said Les Funtleyder, an industry analyst at Miller Tabak, a research firm in New York.

Drug makers have tried to play down their gains from the program because they do not want to be seen as profiteering in an election year, Mr. Funtleyder said. “You don’t want to draw too much attention to how good it’s been.”

Democrats claim the government could save as much as $190 billion over the next 10 years if it negotiated directly. Those savings could help shrink the “doughnut hole,” the gap in Part D coverage that forces many beneficiaries to pay about $3,000 a year for drugs, said Brendan Daly, a spokesman for Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader in the House.

“What we’re planning to do is give Medicare a chance to negotiate prices, and we’d use some of the savings to close the doughnut hole,” Mr. Daly said.

Republicans say the savings estimates offered by the Democrats are vastly inflated. They note that Medicare has already cut its 10-year projection of the program’s cost by $117 billion, though the program is still expected to cost taxpayers $516 billion over the next decade. Republicans also note that, in independent surveys, most seniors say they are happy with the benefit.

“The competitive marketplace has saved much more money than anyone has ever anticipated,” said Leslie Norwalk, the deputy commissioner of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Ken Johnson, senior vice president at Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, the main lobbying group for drug makers, said that allowing Medicare to negotiate directly would be unfair because the government had too much market power.

“The government doesn’t negotiate prices — it dictates prices,” Mr. Johnson said.

Also, the Veterans Administration and Medicare plans are not directly comparable, he said, because the average Medicare drug plan covers 4,300 medicines, while the V.A. covers only 1,300.

The structure of Part D is complex. Medicare does not directly provide coverage. Instead it subsidizes plans offered by private insurers. Insurers negotiate prices with drug makers and create menus of different plans, some with high premiums and broad drug coverage and others that offer basic coverage at low premiums. All plans have to follow certain basic rules, like offering at least two medicines in every drug category.

Medicare then calculates the cost of the average plan and pays every insurer a subsidy of about 75 percent of that cost. Beneficiaries cover the rest, with the amount they pay depending on what plan they choose.

For example, if the average plan costs $100 a month, Medicare will pay all plans a $75 subsidy for everyone who enrolls, and a person who enrolls in the average plan will pay $25. In most states, beneficiaries can choose from among 40 to 60 plans, Ms. Norwalk said.

Part D has raised profits for drug makers both by increasing the prices they receive and by encouraging beneficiaries to fill prescriptions they might otherwise have been unable to afford, analysts say.

The biggest gains have gone to companies that make drugs widely used by the Medicaid program, which covers the indigent. Poor people over 65, known as “dual eligibles,” previously received drugs through Medicaid.

Drug makers were legally required to give Medicaid a discount of at least 15 percent, and sometimes significantly more, from their list prices. Now Medicaid recipients over 65 are covered through the Part D program, which does not require the same discounts. As a result, drug makers are being paid as much as 20 percent more for the same drugs that they had already been providing to recipients under the Medicaid program.

The biggest gainer, analysts say, is Eli Lilly, which makes Zyprexa. Zyprexa, used to treat schizophrenia and other severe mental illnesses, is widely prescribed to Medicaid patients.

Lilly, the sixth-largest American drug maker, reported two weeks ago that its third-quarter sales had risen 7 percent, to $3.9 billion, and its profits were up 10 percent, to $874 million, compared with 2005. According to Lilly’s published review of the quarter, the sales gains resulted almost entirely from Lilly’s prices rising 11 percent in the United States, while actually falling in Europe and Japan.

“We are experiencing a one-time sales benefit resulting from a shift of certain low-income patients from Medicaid to Medicare,” a company spokeswoman, Terra Fox, wrote in an e-mail response to questions about Part D. Ms. Fox declined to quantify how much Lilly had gained from the shift.

But Lilly is hardly alone in benefiting. Pfizer, the world’s largest drug maker, said its sales soared 14 percent in the United States in the third quarter, while rising only 3 percent internationally. Over all, Pfizer said its profits more than doubled, to $3.4 billion from $1.6 billion, though part of the difference came from high one-time charges last year.

Pfizer did not disclose how much of the sales growth came from price increases and how much from new prescriptions, but earlier this year Pfizer raised the list prices of some of its biggest drugs by 5.5 percent or more, well above the inflation rate.

Tony Butler, an analyst at Lehman Brothers, said both volume growth and price increases had driven the industry’s rising profits. But he said he did not expect major changes in the Part D plan even if the Democrats took over Congress, since President Bush would probably not sign any legislation that would allow Medicare to negotiate prices directly.

“It’s our belief that the White House will veto it,” he said.


Jim Nugent

Re:"My meds, and my golf, are too expensive"
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2007, 09:23:33 AM »
There's a real simple way to send prices soaring.  Prevent competition.  Works every time.  That is why industry after industry petitions politicians to license (i.e. severely limit) who can supply goods and services.  

They always say the same thing, "we want to protect the consumer."  IMO they achieve the exact opposite.  But whether I'm right or wrong, the net result is vastly higher costs to the nation, and vastly higher profits to the privileged few who are allowed to supply.  

Sometimes Economics 101 does successfully predict what happens in the real world, and this is one of them.