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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« on: June 24, 2007, 09:00:59 PM »
ON ANOTHER THREAD THERE WAS A DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THE TOP 10 IN THE WORLD WERE FINISHING IN THE OPEN.....
QUESTION....
SHOULD WE TAILOR OUR TOURNAMENTS WHERE THE TOP 10 PLAYERS SHOULD FINISH WELL  OR   SHOLD HOW THE PLAYERS FINISH DETERMINE WHO IS THE TOP 10?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brent Hutto

Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2007, 09:17:25 PM »
In my line of work we'd say that the players in the Top 10 and how they finish in any particular major are reciprocally determined.

But if I say that when I'm not at work some Waffle House eating guy with a trackhoe will probably threaten to come show me how things are determined in the real world. And there's nothing reciprocal about it...

Phil_the_Author

Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2007, 09:41:09 PM »
Nicklaus is the greatest player of all time because of HIS performance in the majors. Tiger is seriously threatening this title because of HIS performance in the majors.

Both Tom Weiskopf and Colin Montgomery are considered as failing because of how THEY performed in the majors.

Courses should be set-up, built and designed to CHALLENGE the great players and define them, not to enhance preconceived notions of their greatness. Otherwise we'd despise Pavin's wood to 18 and Tom's hole-in-one and Mize's pitch-in rather than revere their sometimes singular accomplishments. They are the ones who are most cursed by them as they many times spend the rest of their careers chasing after that elusive thing called "doing it again."
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 09:45:23 PM by Philip Young »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 12:50:02 AM »
This is something that really irritates me.  I don't understand why people tend to think that a name winner legitimizes a tournament or a venue and a lesser-known winner does the opposite.  Would Oakmont have been a better U.S. Open venue if Tiger had won instead of Cabrera?  Are Valhalla, Medinah, Torrey Pines and Firestone great just because Tiger wins there?  Does Royal St. George's suck because Ben Curtis shot a great final round and narrowly edged out some of the best players in the world at the time?  No, no and no.  I agree that a leaderboard full of top names can make for an exciting tournament, but it's entirely possible for a great course to yield an unlikely winner and for a great player to win on a less-than-great course.  

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 11:34:55 AM »
This is something that really irritates me.  I don't understand why people tend to think that a name winner legitimizes a tournament or a venue and a lesser-known winner does the opposite.  Would Oakmont have been a better U.S. Open venue if Tiger had won instead of Cabrera?  Are Valhalla, Medinah, Torrey Pines and Firestone great just because Tiger wins there?  Does Royal St. George's suck because Ben Curtis shot a great final round and narrowly edged out some of the best players in the world at the time?  No, no and no.  I agree that a leaderboard full of top names can make for an exciting tournament, but it's entirely possible for a great course to yield an unlikely winner and for a great player to win on a less-than-great course.  
AGREE
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Russ Miller

Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 12:09:17 PM »
SHOULD WE TAILOR OUR TOURNAMENTS WHERE THE TOP 10 PLAYERS SHOULD FINISH WELL  OR   SHOLD HOW THE PLAYERS FINISH DETERMINE WHO IS THE TOP 10?

The latter.  Just out of curiosity, how would one tailor a course where the top 10 players finish well?  It seems like to me that there is not one or two specific things that all of the top 10 players do better than their competitors.  Some are great drivers, some great putters and others great with a wedge, and some are not great at any one thing in particular but are good at all of them.

Maybe this is a separate question, but if you were to design or set up a course tailored for the Top 10 to do well, what would that course look like?

Justin_Zook

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 12:40:07 PM »
Looking at just winners isn't good enough to determine if a course is a "good test or not".  

That would be like saying Jonathan Byrd is the best player in the world because by percentage, he gets up and down from the sand better than anyone else.  Of course maybe Jonathan Byrd plays easier courses and therefore has better opportunities to get up and that may bias his sand-save percentage.  

Statistics are great, but they are normally biased.  Even the final results of a leaderboard don't always show accurately who was the best player that week.  They just show who scored the best.  (Now to us golfers, we understand that a score is the bottom line.  You determine how well you play by your score.)  But of course "we all know that there was that time when we were playing great golf, striking the ball pure, chipping it stiff, and putting it great, but a bad bounce on 18 puts us into the water.  We salvage triple bogey after a few, half-hearted shots, and there we are, a score 2 strokes worse than our personal bests."  But for 17 holes you were playing as good as you have ever played.  

So I think we should look at a final score or the final standings of a tournament as more of a statistic or measurement of how you played or who played the best, not the ONLY determinant of how you played or who played the best.

Oakmont is obviously an amazing golf course and an amazingly hard golf course.  I think it is worth noting that 2 of the top 3 players in the world finished in a tie for 2nd.  

I think there is something tangible (proven by statistics) and intangible about who are the greatest players in the world.  They just get it done.  I think majors do a greater job than any other tournament of allowing the greatest players in the world separate themselves from mediocrity.

If you cut a cup in the center of a perfectly flat, non-hazarded circular green, on a par 4 that is a straight away 380 yard, 50 yard-wide fairway with no bunkers or hazards and short rough, more than likely, you'll see a player or two make eagle, A BUNCH make birdie, a fair amount of pars, and a few bogeys.

Tiger will make birdie, but so will the 90th best player in the world.  This hole doesn't do a great job in separating who is more outstanding.

To answer Mr. Young's original question, we should not tailor our tournaments to achieve a certain winner, or set of winners.  You should tailor your tournament to require outstanding performance if one wishes to score well.  Of course in doing that, the better players will naturally rise to the top, but it isn't about doing just that.  Ben Curtis wasn't playing like crap the whole week in 2003 at St. Georges.  Tiger was in the hunt down the stretch.  More good players were in the hunt down the stretch.  Colin Montgomery finished 2nd to Tiger in 2005 at the Old Course.  It wasn't like the world #1 was the only good player at the top.

Having a well-known golfer is a result of him being close to the lead down the stretch often.  This produces a high ranking the the World Golf Rankings and more notoriety.  The more the player is close to the lead, the more relaxed he is in this setting and of course, if he is close to the lead, his is obviously playing good golf as well.  

It is kind of a circular argument, maybe reciprocity might not be a bad word for it, but it also goes somewhere, maybe it is more of a spiral type argument, and hopefully I approached the point.
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 01:09:10 PM »
It seems to me that the majors have a pretty good list of winners.  There are not too many "great players" that did not make this list.  There may be a few exceptions of excellent players not on the list like Weiskopf and Johnny Miller.  Yet, courses do not need to be doctored to identify the great ones, they already do.  There are a number of one time winners that caught lightening in a bottle for one week.  That happens in any sport.  Outside of tennis, golf may identify the great players more than any other sport.

Most Professional Majors
Jack Nicklaus - 18
Tiger Woods - 12
Walter Hagen - 11
Ben Hogan - 9
Gary Player - 9
Tom Watson - 8
Bobby Jones - 7
Arnold Palmer - 7
Gene Sarazen - 7
Sam Snead - 7
Harry Vardon - 7
Nick Faldo - 6
Lee Trevino - 6
Seve Ballesteros - 5
James Braid - 5
Byron Nelson - 5
J.H. Taylor - 5
Peter Thomson - 5
Willie Anderson Jr. - 4
Jim Barnes - 4
Raymond Floyd - 4
Bobby Locke - 4
Tom Morris Jr. - 4
Tom Morris Sr. - 4
Willie Park Sr. - 4
Jamie Anderson - 3
Tommy Armour - 3
Julius Boros - 3
Billy Casper - 3
Henry Cotton - 3
Jimmy Demaret - 3
Ernie Els - 3
Bob Ferguson - 3
Ralph Guldahl - 3
Hale Irwin - 3
Phil Mickelson - 3
Cary Middlecoff - 3
Larry Nelson - 3
Nick Price - 3
Denny Shute - 3
Vijay Singh - 3
Payne Stewart - 3

Most Majors - Amateur & Professional
Jack Nicklaus - 20
Tiger Woods - 15
Bobby Jones - 13
Walter Hagen - 11
John Ball - 9
Ben Hogan - 9
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOP 10 PLAYERS AND MAJORS......
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 05:39:55 PM »
The guy missing from that list who arguably deserves a share of the "great" title is Greg Norman. Sure, he blew several majors, and had several taken from him in extraordinary ways. But as much as I like and admire Nick Price, it'd be hard to argue he was a more dominant golfer during his era than Norman. Price was a guy who was just incredibly hot as a golfer for about three years -- always a great ball-striker, he sank a ton of putts, esp. when it counted in majors, during that time. But Norman, by a fair amount I'd argue, was the more dominant player of the two.

The other interesting contrast to me of players from similar eras is Floyd and Weiskopf. They have remarkably similar records in majors -- Weiskopf in some respects challenged seriously more often for major titles than Floyd. But Floyd was always a much better putter, and one of the great closers in the game, and Weiskopf to some extent was not.

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