Bethpage Red?

[Bryce Mueller]

I just wanted to get the thoughts of anybody who has played Bethpage Red recently? I am going to play it on sunday, and would love to get a little bit of a scouting report before i go, as i am giving an 14 handicap a stroke a hole (i'm a +4...) and am playing for office bragging rights...

Any information would be great. thanks

[David Miller]

I played the Red last summer and loved it--a fine supplement to the Black.  

The opening hole is generally regarded as the finest opener at Bethpage (and by some as one of the best in golf)--it's a long, straight and bunkerless par 4 that plays down from an elevated tee and back up to a green perched on a hilltop.  The course then gets easier until it hit its peak stretch from #8-15--there's a lot of solid par fours in there, the highlight being #13 with its split fairway.  I also like the closer, a par 4 with the green set down in an ampitheater.

The Red has its challenges but you'll have the opportunity to score well as a plus four.  It's a fair and interesting test.  I'm jealous you're getting out there--enjoy!

[wsmorrison]

Seems to me, Bryce, that as a +4 you already own the bragging rights and nothing the -14 can do will take that away    But kick his ass anyway  

[Glenn Spencer]

I played it about 10 years ago and I really don't remember all that much about the individual holes. I did like it though, strange for me, as this is usually not the case. 1 is absolutely unforgettable. Make 4 there and you will be 1up, most likely. Should be a good course for giving a shot a hole. I am not a plus 4, but I do end up giving 18 a lot and I would feel comfortable doing it at the Red as much as anywhere.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I've only played there once but it is one of my favorite courses. If I were a local, I'd play there just about everyday and play Black once a month. The 13th hole with the split fairway is a standout. The 1st hole is too.

www.newsday.com/entertainment/localguide/golf/ny-tour-bethpagered,0,6907147.flash?coll=ny-explore-golf-flash

A possible Women's Open course.

[Gene Greco]

Bryce:

   You're gonna smoke your opponent.

The Red is a great course for a great player to beat the tar out of a midhandicapper.

You will win #1 with a par and be two up after three as you will birdie either #2 or #3.

If your opponent mishits his shot at the par 3 4th in any way it will spell disaster for him and you will go three up.

The 5th is a fabulous par 5 which you halve with a par.

The 6th is an easy short par 4 dog leg left which you will get too aggressive with and your opponent will par which will leave you at 2 up.

7th is a pretty little par three which the 14 will bogey and your 8 iron stiff will put you 3 up.

You'll lose 8 and win 9, a 460 yd par 4 bending right to left with some confounding bunkers for the 14 to finish the front at +3.

10 and 11 are decent par 4s which you will halve and you will lose 12 to your opponents par to go to 2up.

!3 will bring double bogey either off the tee or around the green for the 14 and your stellar play will bring you back to 3 up.

No change will occur at the par 4s 14 and 15 and you're dormie. You smell blood and birdie 16 to close him out 4 and 2.

17 is a nothing par 3 and 18 is a terrific and fun finisher off an elevated tee to a green tucked in the trees around a slight dogleg right.

Have fun!!

[Phil_the_Author]

Bryce,

I disagree with the others and feel that you have a tough match ahead of you. It is far more difficult for a +4 to par the first than for a =14 to make a bogey, and you are giving him a shot!

You will need to concentrate throughout this round in a serious fashion. There is a reason why the USGA offered to have an upcoming men's Amateur played on this course. The better you are the more the subtleties of its design will effect your game.

You will need to make a few birdies out there to halve a few holes. #2, 3, 6 & 11 are neither long nor difficult par-4's that he should make bogey on. Your pars will only halve & if he makes one or two, most likely on 2 & 3, then you could be down several holes rather quickly.

A strategy that you will find helpful. On the doglegs try and place your drive to the outer side of the turn as you will find it will usually allow for a better line into the green. A great example of this is #5... be LEFT side off the tee as the trees will quickly block off your second shot. DON"T try to reach it in two.

Thr Red course, more than any other one at Bethpage, has greens that have small rises in the front sections. Especially if holes are cut to the front you want to be BELOW the holes on this course. If the holes are cut middle to back have a go at every one of them, especially if your drive was placed to the outer side of the dogleg as these angles in usually allow for more green space to carry.

DO take a run at carrying the tree with your drive on 16 and going at it in two. By this time you will see that the rough on the Red is very manageable and nothing to fear.

The par-threes paly slightly longer than they appear (at least to me).

Have fun!

[Gene Greco]

Phil:

   5 bucks and I get Bryce.

Another 5 if he closes the 14 out before reaching #17.

Bryce wins on the 17th or 18th and we push.

[Phil_the_Author]

Gene, do I get any odds?  

[Jim Colton]

I just wanted to get the thoughts of anybody who has played Bethpage Red recently? I am going to play it on sunday, and would love to get a little bit of a scouting report before i go, as i am giving an 14 handicap a stroke a hole (i'm a +4...) and am playing for office bragging rights...

Any information would be great. thanks

I'd gladly give the guy all the bragging rights in the world if he did beat me but had to take a stroke per hole to do it.  How does one begin that trash talking session?

I will like being playing the Red (in addition to the Black) in a few weeks, mainly on the advice of Philip.  Let us know how the match goes and what you think of the course.

[Bill_McBride]

Bryce:

   You're gonna smoke your opponent.

The Red is a great course for a great player to beat the tar out of a midhandicapper.

You will win #1 with a par and be two up after three as you will birdie either #2 or #3.

If your opponent mishits his shot at the par 3 4th in any way it will spell disaster for him and you will go three up.

The 5th is a fabulous par 5 which you halve with a par.

The 6th is an easy short par 4 dog leg left which you will get too aggressive with and your opponent will par which will leave you at 2 up.

7th is a pretty little par three which the 14 will bogey and your 8 iron stiff will put you 3 up.

You'll lose 8 and win 9, a 460 yd par 4 bending right to left with some confounding bunkers for the 14 to finish the front at +3.

10 and 11 are decent par 4s which you will halve and you will lose 12 to your opponents par to go to 2up.

!3 will bring double bogey either off the tee or around the green for the 14 and your stellar play will bring you back to 3 up.

No change will occur at the par 4s 14 and 15 and you're dormie. You smell blood and birdie 16 to close him out 4 and 2.

17 is a nothing par 3 and 18 is a terrific and fun finisher off an elevated tee to a green tucked in the trees around a slight dogleg right.

Have fun!!

They don't even  need to play!  

As a current 13, it will be interesting to see how this match turns out.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Congratulations Bryce.

Steve Lapper and I were at Bethpage Black this morning for a 10 AM tee time and Bryce was there at the red about the same time.  We did not get to meet him but met up with 1/2 of his foresome (next to his Duke bag) after we had a bite to eat following our round.  We hear that Bryce shot a 72 and won the match.

Please give us your impressions of the golf course.

[Phil_the_Author]

I've been set up!

Geoff, what did you think of the subtle changes to the Black?

[Geoffrey Childs]

I've been set up!

Geoff, what did you think of the subtle changes to the Black?

Phil

The course was magnificent.  I did not think I would like #14 but it really will work very well. I approve - not that it matters   The new back tee on #9 is going to cause a lot of friction with players if its ever used. It will take a monster drive to clear the hill and get a look at the green (ps- I birdied from further up along with a neat birdie on 11 ). The new back tee on #7 will create a monster too. I'm not sure they're necessary but who knows in a couple of years.

I looked in many spots where the greens can be expanded and did not see as many as I would have guessed from your writing. I will look forward to walking it with you some time.  However, I have never seen them putt more purely and at that speed and in fact there are many breaks I had never seen in all my previous rounds.

I'm still not a fan of the fairway widths for every day play.  

The whole facility is transformed like I could have never imagined.  All the courses that I looked at (mostly red, green and black) are in great shape.  The infrastructure is new, clean and well organized. It puts a smile on my face to have a day of golf like that with great company at the worlds greatest muni golf courses bar none.

_on a side note I was at Fenway on Friday and Heath had a great day with you.

[Bryce Mueller]

Hey Guys,
I heard that I just missed some of my fellow GCA's after the rd, i couldn't be  more frustrated. My first impressions of the facility were pure amazement at how nice the facility is. The clubhouse is gorgeous for a public course, and the view down the 18th of the black is spectacular.

Lemme start by saying that I am currently interning with an investment bank for the summer so I am going from 45 hrs a week of golf to less than 2 rds a month, its a huge adjustment for my own mental health, and it has been a struggle haha. Anyways, because of this, playing a course as challenging as Bethpage Red is brutal because I just don't have the normal bag of golf shots to choose from. I started out with a brutal double bogey on 1, and thought it was gonna be a long day. However, from that point on, i played really really well, and was able to shoot 72. The course is terrific, i love the constant bends in the fairways that force longer players to shape their balls. I also was really impressed with the conditioning of the course, particularly around the greens. The greens were terrific and the rough around them was first rate as well. It was a great day of golf, and I think that course could EASILY stand up to stroke play qualifying in the US Am if neccessary.

My favorite holes were 5,13, and 18, but i thought the whole course was fantastic. Oh, and on a side note, bethpage black is among the best looking courses I have ever seen, just having looked at 1, 15,16,17, and 18. It's up there with some of the best i have been lucky enough to play/see... THanks to everybody for their help as well, I def read everything before I played and felt like I had a better understanding of the golf course going in...

[Phil_the_Author]

Bryce,

Not that this long-time Big East fanatic would ever distrust a Dukey... but since my in-laws live in Louisburg, can you blame me?  

How did the match turn out?

Seriously, I'm very glad you enjoyed it.

[Steve Lapper]

I've been set up!

Geoff, what did you think of the subtle changes to the Black?

Phil

The course was magnificent.  I did not think I would like #14 but it really will work very well. I approve - not that it matters   The new back tee on #9 is going to cause a lot of friction with players if its ever used. It will take a monster drive to clear the hill and get a look at the green (ps- I birdied from further up along with a neat birdie on 11 ). The new back tee on #7 will create a monster too. I'm not sure they're necessary but who knows in a couple of years.

I looked in many spots where the greens can be expanded and did not see as many as I would have guessed from your writing. I will look forward to walking it with you some time.  However, I have never seen them putt more purely and at that speed and in fact there are many breaks I had never seen in all my previous rounds.

I'm still not a fan of the fairway widths for every day play.  

The whole facility is transformed like I could have never imagined.  All the courses that I looked at (mostly red, green and black) are in great shape.  The infrastructure is new, clean and well organized. It puts a smile on my face to have a day of golf like that with great company at the worlds greatest muni golf courses bar none.

_on a side note I was at Fenway on Friday and Heath had a great day with you.

Phil:

   Just thought I'd pass along my impressions as well. I agree with everything Geoff mentioned but might differ on fairwary widths. So long as the rough was kept to a managable length (and it certainly was yesterday) I think having the general public see the relative Open widths is neat and makes the course even more visually difficult. The turfgrasses were in fabulous condition all over the course. The only problem I noticed was the dramatic inconsistency between bunkers. For example, #1's bunkers were wet, heavy and not well kept. Yet the bunkers on 4 and 5 were so much lighter and with better sand. Footprints from a day or longer ago were found everywhere so it was abundantly evident no care was given to them. That shouldn't be terribly hard to remedy.

Geoff's take on the new tees is quite valid. Wayne & I played the back tees save for these two and had more than enough challenge! The entire complex appears to be in fantastic shape and the Black is simply glorious right now.

[Phil_the_Author]

So far no one has mentioned the trees that were removed!

[Steve Lapper]

So far no one has mentioned the trees that were removed!

Oops, I shouldn't forget to mention the dramatic disappearence of the strand of woods that ringed the back of the 4th green. Geoff and I noted their absence and remarked that the penalty for trying to reach this green in two has been severely reduced (in addition to allowing for air to flow more evenly over that elevated green). The chipping area added in its place is quite nice and infinitely more reasonable to recover from.

I'm sure many other trees were removed (but not noticed by our happy-hearted foursome), yet the place could still stand to lose several thousand more as well. When you mention it, they could start with the rather infamous tree at 8, and the the silly ones on 16.

[Geoffrey Childs]

So far no one has mentioned the trees that were removed!

Oops, I shouldn't forget to mention the dramatic disappearence of the strand of woods that ringed the back of the 4th green. Geoff and I noted their absence and remarked that the penalty for trying to reach this green in two has been severely reduced (in addition to allowing for air to flow more evenly over that elevated green). The chipping area added in its place is quite nice and infinitely more reasonable to recover from.

I'm sure many other trees were removed (but not noticed by our happy-hearted foursome), yet the place could still stand to lose several thousand more as well. When you mention it, they could start with the rather infamous tree at 8, and the the silly ones on 16.

Steve

Agreed- I think they removed quite a few for the new tees on 7 and 9 as well.  We didn't walk back to the new tee on 16 (as pointed out to me by Phil).  Playing that hole at 500 yards will be interesting (not for me).  

[Phil_the_Author]

Let no one touch the tree on 8! It has earned its spot through the years.

The trees that you didn't notice taken down were the ones along the right side of the 12th fairway. Probably a 200 or so right there.

What I like about the trees removed behind 4 green is that the ability to judge the shot distance and potential effects of wind have been greatly effected. On a thinking man's hole more thought is now required.

The very unfortunate chipping areas on 4 & 10 (I hate it as it was never intended by Tilly) have remained since before the 2002 Open despite my protests!

[Steve Lapper]

Phil:

   I don't think the tree at 8 has "earned" anything other than to shade out part of the green and take a draw out of play. It doesn't really belong and interferes with the tee shot.

   Not noticing the removal of the 200 or so trees on he right of 12 just highlights how many more could go, For example, how about cutting out many out on #'s 2(both sides), 4 (right side), 7 (both sides), 9 (right side from 150 in),13 (all over), and the trees on the hillside behind 17 green (beneath 18 tee), just for a start?

   I understand your aversion to the chipping area behind 4, but absent the line of trees, what else are you going to put there? rough? Flowering beds (sic)?

Geoff,
   I'm glad I didn't see the new tee at 16! Making a par from the ordinary blues was damn tough enough!

[Phil_the_Author]

Steve,

That tree is an old friend who has playfully swatted down many nearly-well struck shots!

Many at Bethpage would love to be able to take down more trees, but they are at the mercy of environmentalists who have no understanding of the life of a golf course and why trees growing untended can do more damage than anything else. Some of them just took office recently in positions where they can influence many things at the facility.

I believe that they should take out the chipping areas and leave them as rough as originally designed.

My problem with "chipping areas" are that they are almost all put in well after the course has been designed, opened and played, and in the case of Bethpage, for many years.

They became a part of Open course setup in the 90's along with changing par-5's to 4's.

Just as narrowing of fairway widths change angles of play, so do chipping areas as they remove designed hazards, in this case areas of rough, from the course.

just my opinion.

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,

That tree is an old friend who has playfully swatted down many nearly-well struck shots!

Many at Bethpage would love to be able to take down more trees, but they are at the mercy of environmentalists who have no understanding of the life of a golf course and why trees growing untended can do more damage than anything else. Some of them just took office recently in positions where they can influence many things at the facility.

I believe that they should take out the chipping areas and leave them as rough as originally designed.

My problem with "chipping areas" are that they are almost all put in well after the course has been designed, opened and played, and in the case of Bethpage, for many years.

They became a part of Open course setup in the 90's along with changing par-5's to 4's.

Just as narrowing of fairway widths change angles of play, so do chipping areas as they remove designed hazards, in this case areas of rough, from the course.

just my opinion.

Phil:

  You have some very strange friends (and I count myself among them!) .

  Sounds like just another case of misguided tree-huggers ignorantly defended the large weeds. Nassau County politics is already screwy enough, so adding a few more dopes of the green kind shouldn't challenge the status quo up there.

  Upon further thought, I'll come around and agree with you about the chipping areas. They do appear aesthetically inconsistent with the remainder of the course and provide extraordinary relief for a mis-hit shot.  A long miss at 7 or 10 shouldn't have any easy recovery, otherwise everyone would be encouraged to take out the fronting bunker hazards and thus neuter the design strategy. Typically heavy greenside rough should replace them (you read it here first, before everyone notices this in 2009.

 The Black is just such a wonderful gem and should be preserved in it's large-scale elegance and awe without bastardizing its key defenses.

  With you on "your opinion."