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JNagle

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Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2007, 11:00:45 AM »
Bill -

The sand will lose some of its brightness with time.  I believe they used the same sand in the past and it is not as strong.

Jim
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2007, 01:42:09 PM »
Wayne, maybe you already said it, but it seems that bunkers have been added.  It has been a long time since I played the course, but I don't remember as many bunkers.  I also thought that 8 (long par 3?) was a great looking hole. Although my favorite hole may be the 300 yard(?) third hole.
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2007, 02:08:32 PM »
Wayne

The pictures look great - thanks for sharing.


I knew that underneath all that tree cover, there was a wonderful golf course waiting to be (re)found.

How much tree removal was done?

How much more is to be done?


thanks
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2007, 03:55:15 PM »
Jim or others,
What was the biggest difference or change to the bunkers that you made compared to the work Gil Hanse did there not long ago?  I have pictures of his work but thought I'd ask the question.
Thanks,
Mark
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wsmorrison

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2007, 04:10:23 PM »
Tommy and Paul,

Some bunkers have been added, many have been enlarged, which works well with the scale of the golf course, especially as some tree work has been done.  Jim would be best to address how many trees have come down and what the future plans are.  I don't have pictures of 14, but trees were taken down along the right side...more would open up the view of the green end and that would be a welcome change.

The third is a great hole.  The back tees are 317 and the championship tee further up the hill is 399.  The three right side fairway bunkers are just as Flynn had it drawn.  The bunkers fronting the green are different than the plans but are sympathetic to the Hanse version.
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Mike Sweeney

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2007, 07:02:05 PM »
Quote from: JNagle on May 13, 2007, 11:00:45 AM
Bill -

The sand will lose some of its brightness with time.  I believe they used the same sand in the past and it is not as strong.

Jim

Redanman,

Let's all say it out loud - "Merion Thread!" Have we still not learned that all these renovations take 2-3 years to settle in!
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2007, 07:14:03 PM »
I still rue the day last year when we were scheduled to play LCC, but a day of thunderstorms and high wind kept us home.

LCC is a true gem.
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2007, 09:14:10 PM »
Mark,

Gil's work never inluded the fairway bunkers.  The greenside bunkers were either enlarged, combined, adjusted in their locations or simply reconstructed.  As Wayne mentioned the greenside bunkers were sympathetic to Gil's work.  Bottom line, his bunkers on the 3rd hole were perfect.The high faces required the installation of sand trapper.  Some excess material around the greenside bunkers was removed......
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2007, 09:19:57 PM »
Thanks Jim,
I was curious what you guys did differently from Gil?  I know Lancaster reasonably well from having played there a half dozen or so times.  But honestly I have not studied the history to know if Gil's work was restoration or not?  From some of the posts here, it seems quite a bit has been modified by one or both teams of architects?  Is that correct?
Mark
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2007, 09:25:09 PM »
LCC has been modified since Flynn left the 1st time.  We used old photos, plans and what was there.  I am not sure what Gil was commissioned to do.  From what we saw when we first visited the course, it appeared most of the greenside bunkers had been reconstructed in a manner sensitive to Flynn.  Gil reconstructed all the greens to USGA standards and did a great job at that.  We reconstructed two greens since then.

 
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2007, 09:30:14 PM »
Jim

what about the trees?
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2007, 09:36:45 PM »
Paul -

Tree work has really been handled in-house (that is with little input from Ron and I).  We made some recommendations on various holes when the tree impacted playability (2, 3, 10, 14, 15 and 16) but their Supt. Todd Bidelspacher has been doing a great job removing trees and the Club has done a great job giving him the freedom.  Todd was at Kirtland prior to LCC and really continued improvements at Kirtland that were started by Dick Bator.  I can't say exactly how many trees were removed duringthe 2+ year relationship we have had with them.  It is sometimes better not to know.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2007, 06:34:04 AM »
Jim

Understood


Thanks
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Cirba

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2007, 06:56:56 PM »
I wanted to set a placeholder to discuss Lancaster Country Club and the recent work in detail, so I figured this would be a good place given the reference pics.

I have to run to a birthday party, but I did want to point out two things;

1) The scale of Lancaster CC is much "bigger" than anything else I've ever played by Flynn and I believe the recent work really accentuates the scope and dimensions of the course in a very compelling and consistent way.

2) If Merion was where Flynn earned his Masters degree, the 25 years he spent refining and revising Lancaster over the course of his career is where he earned his doctorate.
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wsmorrison

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2007, 07:11:08 PM »
Mike and I had the pleasure of playing Lancaster yesterday.  I don't have much time to address my reaction to the post Forse/Nagle restoration and remodeling, except to say they knocked one out of the ballpark!  It merits far more attention than it receives.  The maintenance program put in place by Todd Bidelspacher is perfectly matched to the architecture.  Firm and Fast!  The greens are superb and demand a lot of consideration in their play.  The rough is more penal than in the past, but the fairways are generous enough that if you get mired in the rough, you know you deserve the 1/2 shot penalty and soon learn that you had better not try too heroic a recovery.  Mike is absolutely correct, the scale with the ongoing tree plan and bunker work is terrific.  A bit reminiscent of the scale that was returned to Philadelphia Country Club.  No surprise there.  It is a fabulous Flynn that Forse and Nagle worked on.  

LCC is one excellent test of golf in a beautiful setting.  If you get the chance, play Lancaster CC.  It is only 15 miles off the PA Turnpike, about 20 miles east of Harrisburg.  I don't know where it is ranked on the magazine lists, but wherever it is, I'm sure it is too low.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 07:11:37 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2007, 07:11:36 PM »
Quote from: W.Vostinak on May 13, 2007, 09:03:00 AM
That sand is atrocious!

I was going to ask about that.  I'm not used to seeing really white sand in SE Pennsylvania.  Will the color become more 'earthy' as time goes on?

By the way, if LCC membership wants it, they should host a USGA national event.  I can easily see the US Am up there.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 07:12:42 PM by Dan Herrmann »
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wsmorrison

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2007, 07:14:12 PM »
Dan,

You're right, it is off-putting.  Ron and Jim maintain that it will evolve into more of a buff color.  I hope so.  Also, the sand, especially on the slopes of the bunkers still needs to compact a bit...it is too fluffy, but this should resolve itself over time.  The bottoms of the bunkers are fine from a playability standpoint.  Have you played Lancaster?  If not, get over there!
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2007, 10:36:31 AM »
We've got to get out there.  We had a tee time last September, but it was 49 and the wind was howling out of the north at about 30MPH.  Not a lot of fun, so we bailed.  

We're on vacation next week - we'll have our pro give them a buzz.  They're very nice folks up at Lancaster....
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wsmorrison

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2007, 10:40:32 AM »
If you're sticking around for your vacation, let's get together.  Give me a call.  Barry will enjoy getting you a locker  ;)
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2007, 12:55:23 PM »
Barry's my hero   :D
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2007, 08:51:57 PM »
JNagle & Wayno,

The photos of the golf course look great, including the sand.

As to the color of the sand, it will change with time.

Noone, buys dark sand, unless you want a greyish-black look in five years.

As to removing the trees in-house, I think that's a mistake as it diverts attention, assets and manpower from the normal maintainance activities, which can be at the golf course's expense, and it puts a strain on the normal green budget.

If a club is serious about tree management, the program should be established as a seperate project, detached from the regular maintainance budget, with the appropriate funds approved and earmarked for that purpose.

Wayno,

Is LCC a "must play" on my trip ?  ;D
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2007, 09:10:06 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on June 25, 2007, 08:51:57 PM
JNagle & Wayno,

The photos of the golf course look great, including the sand.

As to the color of the sand, it will change with time.

Noone, buys dark sand, unless you want a greyish-black look in five years.

As to removing the trees in-house, I think that's a mistake as it diverts attention, assets and manpower from the normal maintainance activities, which can be at the golf course's expense, and it puts a strain on the normal green budget.

If a club is serious about tree management, the program should be established as a seperate project, detached from the regular maintainance budget, with the appropriate funds approved and earmarked for that purpose.

Wayno,

Is LCC a "must play" on my trip ?  ;D

Patrick,

LCC IS absolutely a must play on your trip.  

I'm still decompressing from my recent visit and trying to put my thoughts into some cohesive framework with which to post in depth.   It's a course with a tremendous amount going on with probably as much if not more in the way of architectural subtleties (within the grandest scale of Flynn's I'm familiar with short of Shinnecock) than virtually any of Flynn's other courses I've played.

The tree management program, whether initiated inhouse or with the help of Ron & Jim has been tremendously successful and although more need to go there are very few remaining issues in that area and none that come to mind that negatively impinge on the grand scale of the course.

And, as glaring as the sand is, your correct in your assessment that it's temporary, although the bunkers have a heck of a lot of sand in them at present.

I'd imagine you can guess how I know.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:13:11 PM by MPCirba »
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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2007, 09:10:47 PM »
I agree that those pictures show a really nice looking golf course. I didn't see this thread before but I agree that LCC looks to be a course to see.  Jim and Ron did some nice work there.

I do have to get down to Phillie more often.

Pat - the 3000 trees removed at Yale were an in-house project but there is a separate PS-budget as far as I understand it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:13:09 PM by GJChilds »
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wsmorrison

Re:Lancaster CC photos
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2007, 09:17:44 PM »
Pat,

It certainly is.  I'd say if you stay for a week or so we will have finally scratched the surface and your education in Philadelphia golf will be sufficient for you to be duly envious of our golf riches.  You have a lot of catching up to do and I look forward to witnessing your epiphany ;)

Geoff,

You should see Lancaster, quit messing around on Long Island and get out to Amish country  8)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:20:00 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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