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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2007, 05:46:38 PM »
Oh, I'd assume he knows... and if not, has no reason to want to know... That's cool by me.

BTW, I may have a team match at Green Tree (Antioch) next week.  Waiting to see if I get selected for the team.  If so, I shall be emailing for tips.

 ;D

I've played it, its actually called Lone Tree.

Its got some pretty fun holes as well as some completly put you to sleep boring ones as well.  I'll be interested to see how what kind of condition the course is in.  The par 3s seem to stick out and were pretty fun as I remember them.  And the greenside bunkering was much better than average as I recall.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2007, 05:48:05 PM »
My bad.  Lone Tree is in Antioch.  The team we got matched against is indeed Green Tree, which is in Vacaville.  Will you have tips for me about that?


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2007, 05:50:38 PM »
My bad.  Lone Tree is in Antioch.  The team we got matched against is indeed Green Tree, which is in Vacaville.  Will you have tips for me about that?



Thats a negatory on that one boss.

I hadn't even heard of Green Tree until you mentioned it just now.  I busted out Google Maps and sure enough there it is.  Is it a relatively new course??

Tom Huckaby

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2007, 05:55:13 PM »
Apparently it's been there awhile... NCGA listings say 1962 joining of NCGA.

No hassles... Vacaville is not exactly a golf hot spot.

Pretty incredible NCGA paired them with us for team matches.  But then again we nearly always get screwed like this.  Last year we went to Madera... look that one up....

TH

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2007, 06:01:08 PM »
Yeah I looked it up after I sent that post...they say its a hidden gem, we shall see huh.  Well maybe you shall see that is.

Madera is wait out in BFE.  I guess you boys have all been naughty...how well did you guys do last year??

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2007, 06:04:08 PM »
Too many Tenn, Alabama, Ole Miss grads designing them. I guess I should add Texas A$M, Arkansas, Florida, Auburn and Tulane as well. I am leaving out Georgia out of respect for Mike Young who overcame his education to be a great guy. Or on the half full side there are not enough LSU guys out there like Jim Lipe building Myacama's

Tom Huckaby

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2007, 06:06:08 PM »
Yeah I looked it up after I sent that post...they say its a hidden gem, we shall see huh.  Well maybe you shall see that is.

Madera is wait out in BFE.  I guess you boys have all been naughty...how well did you guys do last year??

We are a bastion of team mediocrity - right around .500 every year.  I've been doing it for 10 years and we've never made the playoffs in my time.  Perhaps there's a causal relationship there.

Not sure why the NCGA sticks us with these far-off courses though... it is supposed to be like with like... that is, publics with publics, high-ends with high-ends.... yet somehow we always get the short end of the stick.

wsmorrison

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2007, 06:06:58 PM »
"There are no incompetent architects only lazy critics...I believe 100% that competency can be found in every project no matter how poor it may appear upon first glance."

John,

While architects play a major role in the process of developing a course, many others are also involved.  A weak link reflects poorly on every participant.  Nevertheless, your premise is not true.  You may believe it, but that does not make it true.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 06:07:10 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2007, 06:08:24 PM »
I know Huck,

I feel your pain.  Nothing like making the sophisticated city-slickers drive out to play the GED toting hill-billies...on thier turf none-the-less.  No respect I tell you, no respect!!  ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2007, 06:19:43 PM »
LOL
Well, our team isn't exactly sophisticated.  And we've had decent competitive success in these far-flung places.  The issue is more that we have to travel 2-3 hours to get there, and well... some courses are worth that and some aren't.  We tend to get the ones that aren't.  Like for like, you know.

 ;D

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2007, 06:31:15 PM »
This topic has gone the way of its subject line ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2007, 06:54:40 PM »
This topic has gone the way of its subject line ...

Booo..... Its been fun.

And yes huck I agree 100%, if you're going to travel all the way out there, best to play stevinson ranch or something like that...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2007, 07:40:37 PM »
Interesting topic....Was Henry Ford a lesson in mediocrity? or did he provide a solution for a need?  Is the Honda Accord or the toyota Camry a mediocre automobile.....
Golf architecture can have many faces....and in many cases the face may be one that creates traffic flow or ease of maintenance or several other items.....all of which may take precedent over strategic or aesthetic elements in a situation.....BUT that does not make it a bad golf course.....we also need to recognize that many courses built in the last 20 years were not built to be in place 30 years from now just as many houses and strip malls in America.  Just our way.....
NOW...Also where JK 's theory is that there are no incompetent golf architects..I disagree....I have seen some....don't play golf....but somehow ended up in the business via a landscape degree or something....and they can screw some stuff up.....problem is not theirs however....
ALSO..this site is not capable of discussing everyday golf architecture because of the elitist attitude toward golf architecture.....nothing wrong with that but it is no different than a wine site or a cigar site....you don't see TWO BUCK CHUCK discussed in a wine mag do you?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2007, 07:47:27 PM »
Chris,

Using the standards of this and many threads I am afraid the course you represent would also be considered mediocre.  I base this just on visiting your website and the lack of suck up posts I see by people trying to win your favor.  How can you defend either your course or the critical mentality of the pundits.

I guess I'm not the warm, cuddly type ;D

Obviously I think my course is more than mediocre.  Actually, I don't think the website is a very good representation and the pictures suck because I honestly believe there is more interest in my greens and more strategy in my course than most of the banality that is Atlanta golf.

I am happy to have anyone come and play as my guest and judge for themselves.  I would LOVE for more people to come see the course and I have a very thick skin and could take any criticism.  

I know I am critical at times myself, but it is usually reserved for the courses that set themselves up as "Augusta National with hardwoods" or some other marketing BS when it is another boring ass course routed through the back yards of some fancy ass neighborhood with a 50,000 sq ft clubhouse that IS in phenomenal shape but where people gush more about the spa, the pool or the flowers at the gated entrance than anything else.  

I might even go so far as to say that my course now represents what this site should (and claims) to look to identify--affordable "sleeper" courses full of strategy and fun.  Not focused on what you do for a living, not a member and three corporate guest golf--4 members enjoying a good, strategic, fun test of golf.

Certainly, my course will never be rated and will never compare in some peoples' minds to the "big name" courses (and it is NOT in those leagues) but the more I talk with the average guy the less I care about their opinions regarding golf architecture.

I must balance my disdain for 99% of what the market cares about with the fact that I am in a business that must present a product that people want to pay for.  

I do offer what most of that market would describe as "mediocre" but here is why many would describe it that way:  
1.  It WAS a mediocre Joe Lee layout designed in 1973 amidst houses and the last 5-6 years it was a run down, poorly conditioned piece of crap.
2.  Today, because the houses are well back from the course and the trees have matured many will not even notice a house on 14 of the 18 holes!
3.  We have an old clubhouse that is small by today's standards.  (15,000 sq. ft)
4.  I refuse to put fountains in any of my lakes (we used to have them).
5.  I refuse to use 150 or 200 yard marks in the fairways--if I could have I would have absolutely no yardage markers--as it is I have a small 150 plate on the cartpath and yardages on sprinkler heads.
6.  I will not have a beverage cart
7.  we don't have scented towels
8.  I sold my swimming pool and tennis courts and put the money into the best superintendent I could afford who shared my vision and that of the architect's as to what the course should be.
9.  BTW, since closing that damned cement pond and tennis courts two years ago and focusing on a good course, good burger and a cold beer, I have a 5-6 month waiting list for membership at my fully private club.  This when some of the big fancy clubs (Golf Club of GA--Initiiation fee waived for 7 years when it was $50k per person; CC of the South--No initiation fee and this after some mebers have paid close to 70K when you include all the assessments of the last years for the clubhouse renovation!!; CC of Roswell and Horseshoe Bend two courses that used to get 20k+ are now "let's make a deal").  My ID is 7500 and monthly dues of 285
10.  My low fees seem "cheap" or "mediocre" to many.  I think some people say "If it's so cheap, can it really be any good"?
11.  I am a busy golf course (though unlike some "fancies" I've never had to go to a lottery system for my membership to book Saturday morning tee times.  Yes, some people have paid $75k to join "elite" clubs and then have to call a starter to get in a weekend lottery system for times!?!)

PS  I'll take my "mediocre" with a waiting list versus "fancy amenities" and not enough people to pay the bills anytime ;)

Now to the post topic: :D
I personally think that the quality of courses re: the design and construction is exceptionally high today.  By and large I think design and construction is as good today as ever before.  BUT, to be a "desireable" talked about course today it's about having a 1. "name" designer  2.  immaculate conditioning/little play  or  3.  An immense, sprawling clubhouse.  That is what the golf market for the most part, appreciates.

Sorry to rant so long :D  Come play!


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2007, 07:55:33 PM »
I'll pick #4.  For  99% of golfers they don't look past the fountains in the lakes or the "mounding" on the cart girl :o

This is kind of what I meant about underestimating Joe Six Pack.

Just because Joe may be forced to settle for less - and appreciate the cart girl - doesn't mean he doesn't care.

I don't underestimate him, in fact I cater to him to a large degree!  Many of my members join me as the first truly private club they can afford.  My guy wants good affordable golf and I give that to him/her.  BUT, by and large, my membership couldn't possibly care less about architecture.

They love the conditioning and enjoy the course but have no desire to understand why they enjoy it.  It is a little like reading Shakespeare--he was obvioulsey a genius that created incredible depth in his works, but he was also an entertainer to the vulgur masses who could appreciate his work as just a fun story.  There is so much more to it than just the story but for most people, they don't care to delve further--AND THAT IS FINE.

Golfers and people can enjoy things and stay clueless--that's OK just not my cup of tea.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2007, 08:29:13 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for some of the most compelling golf writing I have ever read.  Your course is what I would call great in how it serves the game as any playing field should.  Shame on people like my good friend Hendren who would catagorize it as no more than mediocre.  note: I doubt if I will ever play it myself unless I join it.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 08:31:58 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2007, 09:54:54 PM »

I know I am critical at times myself, but it is usually reserved for the courses that set themselves up as "Augusta National with hardwoods" or some other marketing BS when it is another boring ass course routed through the back yards of some fancy ass neighborhood with a 50,000 sq ft clubhouse that IS in phenomenal shape but where people gush more about the spa, the pool or the flowers at the gated entrance than anything else.  


Chris, pretense is often a pre-cursor for mediocrity.  The course that was the genesis for my post (not one of the two listed above and I won't name it, Barney) is in your neck of the woods and fits your bill.  

Hopefully I'm still the same guy that drove up to play Quail Crossing, that posted the pictures on a thread about the quaint University of the South course, and recently played Southern Pines instead of whatever.

As Alan Jackson says: "It's all right to be little bitty."  Mediocre is another thing altogether.

Mike  
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2007, 10:55:31 PM »
Why are so many mediocre golf courses being built today?  

Information costs.
That was one hellacious beaver.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2007, 12:24:57 AM »
Chris,

It sounds like you are trying to provide affordable golf without all the costly bells and whistles, yet with a somewhat compelling venue to test oneself on. Kind of what I thought Trevino was asking for that caused JK to call him a jerk.

More power to you.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2007, 02:03:57 AM »

Look at what threads like this have done to an innocent kid like Jordan.  Don't forget that this is the exact word that drove Moran from the site.

John,

I'd be happy to, once again, explain why I don't like Sandpines.  Do you want me to?
It doesn't take somebody from this site to realize something is missing from that place.
Unless, of course, they are named John Kavanaugh.
Nonetheless, I understand your incapability to take things seriously and thus wont worry about the explanation.  
Use the search engine if you answered yes to the first question.

Cheers,
Jordan

John Kavanaugh

Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2007, 07:13:52 AM »

Look at what threads like this have done to an innocent kid like Jordan.  Don't forget that this is the exact word that drove Moran from the site.

John,

I'd be happy to, once again, explain why I don't like Sandpines.  Do you want me to?
It doesn't take somebody from this site to realize something is missing from that place.
Unless, of course, they are named John Kavanaugh.
Nonetheless, I understand your incapability to take things seriously and thus wont worry about the explanation.  
Use the search engine if you answered yes to the first question.

Cheers,
Jordan


Jordan,

My point was that you would have enjoyed a day at Sandpines more if you had never found this site than you would today.  That is unless you get satisfaction from false superiority, which can be a fine hobby - if not a lonely one.  

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2007, 07:35:58 AM »


Quote

Jordan,

My point was that you would have enjoyed a day at Sandpines more if you had never found this site than you would today.  That is unless you get satisfaction from false superiority, which can be a fine hobby - if not a lonely one.  
Quote

John,
the above got me to thinking......re the site.....do you think GCA pocket protectors could be as big a seller as the golf bags??? ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2007, 08:06:23 AM »
I'm certainly not a "statistics guy", but doesn't a standard bell curve speak to a majority of mediocrity in most samples?

-Ted

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2007, 08:12:16 AM »


Quote

Jordan,

My point was that you would have enjoyed a day at Sandpines more if you had never found this site than you would today.  That is unless you get satisfaction from false superiority, which can be a fine hobby - if not a lonely one.  
Quote

John,
the above got me to thinking......re the site.....do you think GCA pocket protectors could be as big a seller as the golf bags??? ;D



My vote is to sell those lip protectors like rescue workers use to keep their lips off of the victims while they are giving mouth to mouth


....except the lips would be protected from another orifice
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mired In Mediocrity
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2007, 08:21:46 AM »
I'm certainly not a "statistics guy", but doesn't a standard bell curve speak to a majority of mediocrity in most samples?

-Ted
I AGREE..THERE IS MEDIOCRITY WHEN OBSERVING THE "TOP 100"
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"