[Mike Hendren]

Why are so many mediocre golf courses being built today?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Name one.

[Tom Huckaby]

Provocative question, oh great one.  Of course to ponder "why" presumes that one agrees that so many mediocre courses are being built.

And I'm not sure I do.  But then again, I just tend to hear about the good ones.

Here in the Bay Area it seems to be about even... that is, as many mediocre new ones have been built as good ones.  Is it different nation-wide?  World-wide?

[Dale_McCallon]

I thought we were excited by all the great things that have gone on in the past 10-15 years.  It seems to me that their are a lot of good courses popping up.

Is it any different than the "Golden Age".  You can't convince me when this era was going on, plenty of mediocre courses weren't being built--they just get forgotten amongst all the talk of the greats.

Even you were excited about the happenings in Mid Tenn.  You seemed excited, even calling it a Renaissance in Mid Tenn.  I thought you were talking about golf courses, but maybe getting running water in that neck of the woods was the big event that had you so excited.

[Mike Hendren]

Barney, next time at least take the first pitch before swinging from the heels at a fastball grooved with you in mind.

In my back yard:  Governer's Club.
Bonus: RTJ Trail's Ross Bridge.

Honestly, there's more architectural merit in the nine holer I grew up on than either of these two.  

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

My theories:

1.  Poor sites
2.  Housing
3.  Business v. Profession
4.  Golfers could care less
5.  Architect Incompetence
6.  Architect Indifference
7.  Architect Lack of Pride
8.  Architect Laziness
9.  Architect Ignorance

Then again, I live in a tract mansion.

Mike

[Garland Bayley]

Mike,

Shouldn't Victoria National be in your list.

[Mike Hendren]

There are indeed amazing golf courses being built today and the case for a Renaissance is valid.  Do some folks just not get it, or is their a natural lag time before the rising tide lifts all boats?

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Why so negative?  I've never seen a bad course that did not eventually become a value.  Your attitude as an architectural pundit reminds me of the douche bag that declared his job stinks.  All nine of your points of contention are regurgitated elitist positions that will make you a bitter golfer and poor evaluator if you do not dismiss them immeadiately.  The current crop of architects working today are the best who have ever chosen such a difficult and noble proffesion.  To indicate even a few are ignorant or uncaring is sinfull on several levels.  Please reflect on what the cause of your recent unhappiness is and alliviate said problem as soon as possible.  You have my number if I can help.

[George Pazin]

It probably has as much to do with restrictions placed on architects as anything else; everything from housing getting the good land, to environmental difficulties, to minimizing litigation, to insistence on golf carts, etc., etc. And sometimes the painful realities of business intrude (juggling multiple jobs, employee turnover).

One overlooked area, I've always thought, is a general underestimating of Joe Six Pack and his desires. I'd like to think the success of places like Rustic Canyon would have people rethinking this, but instead they probably just figure that area is underserved with respect to less expensive golf.

[Mike Hendren]

Barney, thanks for you concern.

But, saying "it's all good" is like sporting one of those yellow Lance Armstrong bracelets - you might think it's hip, but everyone knows better.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney, thanks for you concern.

But, saying "it's all good" is like sporting one of those yellow Lance Armstrong bracelets - you might think it's hip, but everyone knows better.

Mike

I have recently found that it is all good when it comes to new courses being built.  Restoration is another matter.

Poor sites lead to affordable golf.

Housing leads to affordable golf.

Business leads to employment of good people.

There are no incompetent architects only lazy critics...I believe 100% that competency can be found in every project no matter how poor it may appear upon first glance.

[Jordan Wall]

Michael,

I don't believe housing is a reason for bad golf courses.

Though the routing may end up being a bit indifferent due to housing issues, that does not mean the architect does not have the ability to design holes that have architectural merit.  I think housing is a poor excuse.  Sure, houses do intrude to courses and make them visually gross, but I dont think they are a reason for poor architecture.  Thats just my opinion though.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a link to the routing of the club you mention such being the Governers Club: http://www.thegovernorsclub.com/golf/tourcourse.htm

Please note the textbook architecture of the bunker scheme on the first hole.  Challenge the fairway bunker and get a better angle into the green.  I see this theory carried through the entire course.  I've never been a fan of textbook architecture but most on this site are...I can feel the pride that the residents and members of that community must feel knowing they have a Palmer design.  I don't think either he or his people deserved the labels your cat of nine tails scraped across their backs.


My question would be...What happens to a man to no longer enjoy a course like the above and why would you wish it upon even your greatest foe.  Is this what pundancy is about?

[Garland Bayley]

I have recently found that it is all good when it comes to new courses being built....
There are no incompetent architects ...

Isn't this a bit like saying all new roads are all good and that there are no incompetent road builders?

Never mind that there are roads that have to be rebuilt almost immediately on completion, because of some flaw. There are roads that begin to deteriorate far sooner than a road of reasonable quality would.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't see myself ever playing any course on the RTJ trail because I really am above that kind of thing but many of my friends love it to death.  Based on the link below it looks anything but mediocre to me...Ross Bridge included.  As a matter of fact I'm suddenly interested.

http://www.robert-trent-jones-golftrail.com/Special.htm

[John Kavanaugh]

I have recently found that it is all good when it comes to new courses being built....
There are no incompetent architects ...

Isn't this a bit like saying all new roads are all good and that there are no incompetent road builders?

Never mind that there are roads that have to be rebuilt almost immediately on completion, because of some flaw. There are roads that begin to deteriorate far sooner than a road of reasonable quality would.

G,

Any architect that convinces someone to let them build a course is not incompetent by definition.  There are no incompetent road builders still in business...we provide a performance bond worth the value of the project to ensure satisfactory completion.

Instead of making cute comments why not name a mediocre course that you have recently seen built.  I admire Mike for at least taking a stance.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'm not agreeing with the premis, but am adding these attributes:

Tight schedule
Owner provided unsound golf demands that don't fit the environment

I know both of these all too well, because I've had the opposite.  


Here is my third:

Architecture restraint is not prevelant in the rush for ratings and signature holes.

Something I am also very familiar with becasue we did the opposite.  

[Garland Bayley]

...
Instead of making cute comments why not name a mediocre course that you have recently seen built.  I admire Mike for at least taking a stance.

Since I don't make a point of going out and playing something just because it is new, I had to start looking at dates built to see what qualifies. I came up with one that might be the poster boy for mediocrity.

Sandpines

[John Kavanaugh]

Unreached potential in the mind of an idiot does not make a course mediocre.  Sandpines is a worthy addition to the world of golf that brings happiness and affordable warm ups to many golfers on the way to one of the truly great resorts in the world.  It's like saying that Robert Parish was a mediocre basketball player.

[Jordan Wall]

...
Instead of making cute comments why not name a mediocre course that you have recently seen built.  I admire Mike for at least taking a stance.

Since I don't make a point of going out and playing something just because it is new, I had to start looking at dates built to see what qualifies. I came up with one that might be the poster boy for mediocrity.

Sandpines

That good?

[Garland Bayley]

Unreached potential in the mind of an idiot does not make a course mediocre.  Sandpines is a worthy addition to the world of golf that brings happiness and affordable warm ups to many golfers on the way to one of the truly great resorts in the world.  It's like saying that Robert Parish was a mediocre basketball player.

Well, you just said Sandpines is not truly great. So I suppose you put it in the good category since you are disagreeing with it being mediocre. I will admit that it is a good golf cart race track. But, that is not what I would go there for. Roads are built by a formulated method. If the method is done very well, you will get a very good road I suppose. When the same is done for golf courses, I would argue that you get very mediocre golf courses. Sure the greens may drain very well. The traps may stand the test of time. But the golf can be no more than a warm up for the real stuff.

EDIT: As for Robert Parish, he made the big leagues. Sandpines did not. No valid comparison there.

[John Kavanaugh]

Look at what threads like this have done to an innocent kid like Jordan.  Don't forget that this is the exact word that drove Moran from the site.

[Phil McDade]

Wisconsin native Andy North has built two somewhat high-profile courses in Wisconsin -- Trappers Turn in the Wisconsin Dells resort area, and Bergamont in suburban Madison. TT is a pretty good course; Bergamont is not. It's idle speculation on my part, but North had a nice piece of land to work with in the Dells, and turned TT into a challenging but not overly demanding course that's full of variety. Bergamont was done as part of a very (for Madison) upscale housing development -- some of the homes lining the course are among the largest and most expensive in the area. I don't know that the housing needs of the development co-opted the best land, or that the land simply wasn't as conducive to a good course. And maybe he had less $$ to work with than he did up in the Dells. Bergamont has a several decent holes, and even one or two excellent ones (the par 3 17th is quite good, I think). But overall it's clearly a notch or two (or three) below TT. Bergamont recently went private, after opening a few years ago as an upscale daily fee course. TT remains (from what I can tell) a pretty popular daily fee course, relying on the summer tourism season at the Dells and priced well below the high-end Kohler courses in Wisconsin.

In conclusion, I'd call Bergamont a mediocre course, and TT a pretty-to-very good one. Bergamont was built as part of a housing development, while TT was not. Maybe that's not the defining reason for the difference in quality, but I suspect it played a role.

[Gary Slatter]

Interesting topic.  I recently mentioned to Ben Cowan Dewar some of the golf activity soon to occur in the Bahamas - Nicklaus and Palmer courses for GINN Sur Mer, Fazio course on Abaco, revival of two Fazio renovated Wilson and Lee courses, new Norman course on New Providence, new Ells and Woods Albany Club, etc.  

His comment was something along the line of great activity, too bad no quality golf.  He was right in a way, however the owners spending the money (investment) obviously feel they are building the best possible courses. This discussion group is not their market, however even the quality designers are challenged when they look at 1000 acres of tumbled limestone with elevations from 2 to 6 feet (mostly above sea level, except in hurricane season).  It takes imagination to see natural holes.

so mediocrity to some is paradise to others....

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