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John Keenan

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San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« on: June 22, 2007, 10:21:59 AM »
Looks as though the leadership of SF does not see as much golf in their future. Suggestion is for no more Fleming, turn Lincoln into a 9 hole and turn Sharps Park into a nature preserve. Here is the editorial from today's Chronicle:


A DECISION about contracting out San Francisco's money-losing golf courses has turned up perhaps a bigger question. Why not convert some of the broad, green fairways into playfields?

It's a challenge that has picked up steam from soccer teams, dog walkers and hikers. But it comes loaded with millions of dollars in new expenses, extra duties for the city and a potential uproar that goes with upsetting a familiar part of the landscape.

The city -- in this case, the Recreation and Parks Department -- should consider tweaking its six courses. But there are bunker-sized hazards in converting the courses to other recreational uses.

The situation begs for careful thought. The verdant, woodsy courses, mainly on the western flank of town, are a benign presence that date back generations. But there are fewer golfers and bigger deficits facing the city. The Bay Area has a surfeit of golfing options, and the city's muni courses have a reputation for spotty care.

The Neighborhood Parks Council, which is bringing up the issue, suggests cutting the Lincoln links overlooking the Golden Gate from 18 to 9 holes, shutting down Fleming (now a 9-hole short course) and turning the city-owned Sharp Park in Pacifica into a nature preserve. The other courses, including the PGA-level Harding layout, would stay.

Why do this at all? Because, the council argues, the city's sports-minded population wants more out of its open space: soccer fields, baseball diamonds, jogging and hiking trails, disc golf courses, skate parks and tai chi spots.

No one knows this better than recreation officials, who say the city needs 35 new soccer fields and 30 baseball diamonds to meet demand. The existing 80 fields are worn down, gopher-holed and unusable for weeks after steady rains.

Finding the money and the best locations, however, will be difficult. Converting any golf course will disrupt nearby neighborhoods, cost unknown amounts and mean an irrevocable change. "Once these courses are gone, they won't be coming back,'' said Supervisor Sean Elsbernd, whose district includes the Harding and Fleming courses.

It's rare that a city has a chance to stop, think and plan its future. As the city weighs turning over the courses to outside managers, it has just such an opportunity.

Within the next few weeks, the Board of Supervisors is due to consider a first step in the contracting process with a final decision likely next year. That should give the city time to ponder all the options before signing off on lengthy leases to run the golf courses.


The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2007, 10:51:25 AM »
Seems like they have a procedural problem. Meaning the past procedures don't work. Lengthy contracts with similar seemingly crooked caretakers is the issue.

Will baseball and soccer ever be able to re-coup the needed revenue in perpetuity?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Benham

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2007, 11:03:35 AM »
Interesting commentary and after spending countless hours in youth sports and dealing with the lack of fields, comments that I can't argue with.

Forget the financial issues, the costs to convert golf courses to soccer fields, nature preserves ,etc. and the loss of a profitable operation, municipalities have proven that radical change to their assets and infrastructure is usually not successful.

The fact is that the City has always had a shortage of multi-use sports fields and nothing has been done about it.  The fact that the don't have the resources or capabilities to maintain their existing fields should not go unnoticed.  

An obvious solution would be to convert the soon tenant-less Candlestick Park into multiuse sports complex ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Brad Tufts

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2007, 12:00:17 PM »
Disc golf?  Ugh..... I always thought Disc golf was the 8-track or music minidisc of the golf world....
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

David_Tepper

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2007, 12:06:14 PM »
This is VERY disappointing news. I cannot think of a golf course that gets more play than the 9-hole Fleming course at Harding Park. In fact, my wife is playing there this morning!

 

John Keenan

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2007, 12:25:32 PM »
David

I must agree with you. In additioin many older players can easily walk the course and enjoy a great round on a nice course

It will still leave SF with the 9 hole course in Golden Gate Park but that is no where as nice as Fleming.

Curious if all this activity will have an impact on Gleneagles. It is not managed or run by the city so hopefully it is not part of the discussion.
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Tom Huckaby

Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2007, 12:27:56 PM »
THis is far from a done deal, isn't it?

I'll weep when they start digging.  In the meantime, I'll continue to believe these courses exist as is.

TH

Matt_Cohn

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2007, 12:31:00 PM »
Tom,

I hope those of us in SF don't wait until the digging starts. Golfers in SF have typically been inactive when it comes to sticking up for our courses.

I hope we get involved early and often this time around.

Tom Huckaby

Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2007, 12:33:08 PM »
Matt:

Admirable attitude, and I didn't mean to suggest apathy.  I was just asking a serious question:  this is all talk at this point, correct?  

TH

Matt_Cohn

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2007, 01:01:29 PM »
Tom,

I ain't mad atcha! I was specifically referring to "those of us in SF"; I think the responsibility clearly rests with us city residents (not that the rest of our Bay Area friends can't help!).

I don't think you'd be apathetic about it, and you didn't come across that way. My bad.

Yes, it's talk right now, but it seems be getting some attention.

Tom Huckaby

Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 01:05:09 PM »
Matt - it's all good.

It's just that SO many wild ideas come out of SF, well... I tend to be a doubting Thomas until shovels are placed in ground.  But if this is getting attention, it does need to be addressed.  Mr. Benham has great wisdom in his post up there....

TH

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2007, 01:09:39 PM »
Unbelievable.  I'm sure it's only talk at this point, but bay area golfers need to make themselves heard.  

Tai Chi spots indeed.


Tom


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 03:58:37 PM »
Timely article in the current San Francisco magazine, a profile of Sandy Tatum that covers all of the above (see pg 2 in particular):

http://www.sanfran.com/home/view_story/1701/
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2007, 04:34:40 PM »
The board of stupidvisors are at it again!!!!  Unbelievable.

Mike B. took the words right out of my mouth.  Takeover Candlestick and put all the fields you want out there.

I'm a big soccer fan and played for many years.  I hung them up three years ago (too old), and it was always a pain to find a field in the city.  We'd get booted from the Marina Green, Moscone or Golden Gate.  Why not reserve some space in those areas?  Or rotate them?

Also if the fields are in such bad shape as it is ... what's to say they'll do any better by building on top of the golf courses?  They can't even get Muni to run right!!!

About Fleming .... I don't see how they're not making money.  It's always packed.  It's a lie!  Do some cost analysis and bump the fee a little if need be, but don't shut it down.  What are they going to put in it's place?  A baseball diamond?

I was already saying what a travesty and embarassment it was for the city to not restore Sharp Park to some of it's former glory (if that's even possible).  Yet it's always packed.  Another lie!  Plus it's already a nature preserve.  What else do they want?  They're lying.  They'll put homes on that course before it ever becomes some preserve.

I wish I could get a hold of a flat file of all resident card owners and make them aware of what's being discussed.  I'd bet a good portion would show up to a stupidvisor meeting and voice their opinion.

Anyone here on this board from SF that knows when the next meeting is?  I DEFINITELY WANT TO SPEAK UP.  Think globally and act locally kind of attitude.

Just gets old hearing how they constantly want to screw up something good.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox... :-)



“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2007, 05:34:52 PM »
Kevin thanks for posting the article on Sandy Tatum. I guess I come down on the side that he is driven to make golf better in SF. I am sure there is some truth in the other side, such as the huge decline in Harding Men's club something caused it.Overall he is a good guy and seems to want what he sees as the best for SF golf. $31.00 rate for Harding is hardly a high prices. I do remember many years ago Seniors played of $10-15 I think way too low then and far way too low today. I would also note that many did not pay as they were "friends" of the starters.

Patrick I fully agree re Fleming. It is not cheap for 9 and always seems pretty busy. Curious what is the resident rate today for Fleming?  
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2007, 05:39:52 PM »
Speaking of Sharp Park, there has been some talk about that the city of Pacifica might be interested in acquiring it from SF to run (and possibly restore) as their own muni golf course. I am not holding my breath, but that idea is sure intriguing.  

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2007, 05:44:54 PM »
Given that itis located in Pacificia and not SF it would make a lot more sense. Unclear how the CIty and COunty of SF ended up with a golf course in San Mateo county but I am sure that is another story for another time

It has been years since I have played there but I would suspect it would be quite costly to restore it. It had serious erosion issues as I rememebr.

The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 06:06:22 PM »
Unclear how the CIty and COunty of SF ended up with a golf course in San Mateo county but I am sure that is another story for another time


Well, they bought the land legally, one must assume, decades ago ... same with the land where SFO (also in San Mateo County) sits, the entire Hetch Hetchy water system including the Crystal Springs watershed area ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2007, 06:31:24 PM »
John Keenan -

I did not mean to imply Sharp Park could (or would) be "restored" to its original A. Mackenzie 1930's specs. You are correct. Portions of the original course have been washed away over the years and another portion of the original course was lost when Highway #1 was enlarged. I should have said renovated instead of restored.

As Mike Benham states, the city/county of SF has substantial land holdings outside the city/county limits, much of which is owned by the Water Department. In addition to the properties he mentions, I believe they own (or did own) a sizeable tract of land in the East Bay.

DT  

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2007, 07:01:52 PM »
Well the biggest problem is that the massive sea wall has been built near the ocean holes, so unless they raise the grade of the course, there will never be views for those holes.

And its my understanding the sea wall was built on top of at least two of the original holes, but I could be wrong on that one.  Either way, this course unfortunatly qualifies as mediocre as described in the other thread, if not outright dogtrack status.

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2007, 07:05:05 PM »
Patrick I fully agree re Fleming. It is not cheap for 9 and always seems pretty busy. Curious what is the resident rate today for Fleming?  



$23 on weekends I believe.  Went up this year.

There's just no imagination on that board.  Clueless and always the path of least resistance.

Playing Lincoln tomorrow and can't wait...
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2007, 07:07:07 PM »
Ran,

Looks like I better hurry up here and get "My Home Course" up on this board before it disappears...

“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2007, 07:36:22 PM »
The cities always cop out with the notion that they aren't in the golf business.

How hard would it be for them to hire individual accomplished professional superintendents,(100k) maybe provied some housing on site, pay them a decent wage and let them do what they do best, grow great turf??? The revenue dept can staff the pro-shop. Some smart concessinaire can bid for the F&B. It ain't rocket science (is it?)

Patrick- The city should be made aware that visitors to the city are also part of the mix. A well worded petition at each threatened course... and it shouldn't be too hard to get some solid numbers.

Just act



« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 07:37:40 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2007, 11:07:03 PM »
1. So they want to put a soccer field on Fleming which is right in the middle of the routing of Harding Park and adjacent to many holes on Harding Park...hmmm... What happens when (hundreds of) errant golf balls start raining down on the 2nd graders playing soccer??

2. Turning Lincoln into a 9 holer ??? ???...and regarding Lincoln Park's 17th hole... which is one of the most beautiful golf holes anywhere... into a "an events venue
on what is now the waterside 17th hole."

Furthermore, where on Lincoln would they have enough flat land to build a soccer field???


I'm just speechless.... ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 11:08:15 PM by Evan_Green »

Adam Clayman

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Re:San Francisco Golf.....the saga goes on
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2007, 11:33:31 PM »
The real loser in all this, should it happen will be to the future generations of golfers who can't afford the CC's.

Geoff's site has a relevant quote.

Quote
There are simply not enough golf facilities geared for beginners. Imagine the problem if alpine ski resorts only built expert trails and ignored the novice and intermediate ones. In essence, this is what the golf industry has done since the emphasis shifted to upscale facilities and virtually ignored simple, low-cost beginner courses.  MICHAEL HURDZAN

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle