Who were the artists?

[Peter Pallotta]

Of the great architects of old, does any one stand out as thinking of himself as an "artist"? In their own writings or what contemporaries wrote about them, did any of them put a specific value on the "art" of golf club architecture (as opposed to, say, the engineering or strategic aspects),   or "identify" themselves primarily in that way?

I know that the best of them had high aspirations and recognized the greatness (strategic and otherwise) of the designs that came before them, and that all of them were craftsmen, and that some were businessmen too. I'm not saying that all their best work can't be considered "art"; I'm wondering if any of them used that term (and valued it) themselves.

Thanks
Peter

Edit: By the way, no 'hidden agenda' here. I assume the answer is out there, but that I just don't know it.  

[David Stamm]

Peter, from Scotland's Gift, Golf page 302.


"Architecture is one of the five fine arts."


Now, Macdonald was referring to architecture in general, but I believe he was including course architecture as well. The statement above was defending his ideas of copying the holes from Britain, but I think this was Macdonalds way of enhancing what he was doing as well.


"A good golf course grows on one like good painting and good music." - Alistar Mackenzie, Golf Architecture.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, David.

They say that John Ford used to bristle when anyone suggested that he might be artist, or that he was making art. He'd always grumble something about "I'm just making damn westerns".  That was his public position, at least; I don't know what he really believed in his heart of hearts.

I guess I was wondring if there were any of the old architects who took a diametrically opposite position to Ford's, at least publicly. From the quotes you provide, at least MacDonald might have. (I'll leave Mackenzie off, just for now; he might've been saying, or so it seems to me, that good gca grows on you like good painting or music, and that you learn to appreciate it more and more it over time -- all true, I think, but maybe not the same thing as thinking of oneself as an artist).

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

I think that Tom Simpson probably qualified as the most "artistic" of golf architects of the Golden Age.  He was a great illustrator of golf holes and often produced sketches of the finished product in addition to the plan view.

[BCrosby]

I vote for Tom Simpson. Certainly he saw himself as a strategic architect first and foremost. He loved to debate "opponents" of strategic architecture. So we aren't talking your usual sensitive soul.

But he may have been the best "artist" of the lot. His sketches are extraordinary. He was very talented with pen and ink.

Of all the architectural drawings I've seen, his are the only ones my wife would allow me to hang on a wall that wasn't in the basement.  

Bob

[RJ_Daley]

I'd ask Tommy N., if Des thought of himself as an artist and his work as art.  I know he, like Strantz was a good golf hole landscape painter, in watercolor.  I'm not sure about if he did other medium like oil.

This sounds like a thread Tom MacWood could re-appear on.  

[Bill_McBride]

I vote for Tom Simpson. Certainly he saw himself as a strategic architect first and foremost. He loved to debate "opponents" of strategic architecture. So we aren't talking your usual sensitive soul.

But he may have been the best "artist" of the lot. His sketches are extraordinary. He was very talented with pen and ink.

Of all the architectural drawings I've seen, his are the only ones my wife would allow me to hang on a wall that wasn't in the basement.  

Sounds familiar.  I had to hang my MacKenzie Old Course map and my 1910 St. Andrews railroad poster in my office.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tillinghast was a wonderful artist. He produced hole and course sketches that hang on many walls today as fine art as much as historical pieces.

He carried a sketch pad wherever he went and constantly spent time relaxing with pencil and paper.

His grand-daughter Marnie Lou, who died about four years ago was a terrific artist as well. She did a pair of paintings of both Tilly & his wife Lillian that are quite stunning and belong to the family.

[paul cowley]

Interesting question Peter.

I think very few true artists have become great golf designers....and I feel the opposite is true as well.

Primarily because a good golf designer has to be involved with function first...and the best ones combine that with strong artistic flairs for the natural.

Artists are less challenged by the function of their creations...they are generally more concerned with what they represent, than how they work.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, gents.

I'm not sure how to phrase a follow-up question.  Maybe:

Any thoughts on where you'd 'rank' this artistic sensibility in terms of all the other aspects of an architect's talent/ability?

Is such artistry the 'icing on the cake'? Is a self-consciously artistic sensibility hard to 'separate out' from other aspects of the architect's craft, and from a course's overall excellence?

I read the profile of Simpson's Cruden Bay; the routing gets especially high praise, and the course certainly looks natural and wonderful. Is there anything especially artistic about it?

Thanks
Peter

edit: Paul C - thanks. Just read your post now. I think we were thinking along parallel lines, except you as a professional architect and me as...well, not.  

[Rich Goodale]

Peter

The profile of Curden Bay on this site is misleading, as it implies that Simpson and Fowler did what they did on a blank canvas.  In fact, what exists today was built over the bones of a course laid out by Old Tom Morris and Archie Simpson in 1899.  Whilst Simpson and Fowler re-routed most of the front 8 holes, they used the old greens at 2, 6 and 7.  The stretch from 9-15 (including much of the "quirk" that CB afficionados like so much) is very little changed from the old Morris/A. Simpson course, except for the 11th which Simpson designed.  The final 3 holes are all Fowler/Simpson.

The old course started and finsihed where the new clubhouse sits.  That would have been cool......

This is all from the official club history.  Because of the two (non-related) Simpsons involved, many people get confused about credit for the design.  The club calls T. Simpson the "Principle Course Architect" but properly recognizes the work of others.

Rich

[Tony Ristola]

Paul,

That may have been so in the old days, but I'm not so sure it applies today.

Ahem...
Looking for drainage in all the right places.