3 Consecutive Par Fives?

[Mike Hendren]

For some reason on the drive to work this morning I was thinking about Langford's Gatlinburg (TN) CC and it dawned on me that the 9th, 10th and 11th are par fives.  Back in the day we'd skip class in law school and play there - an interesting routing late in the architect's career (1957?).

Two questions:

1. Any other examples of three consecutive par fives;
2. Is that an inherent routing flaw;
3. Anybody played GCC lately (I've heard they did some work there and screwed it up)?

Mike

[Glenn Spencer]

Tour Director,

Patrick Mucci came up with a few of them. I asked a similar question a while back. He had some good stuff for me, but I can't remember it. So did some others, now that I think of it.

[Rich Goodale]

Dornoch starts 5,5,5.

It says 4,3,4 0n the card, but that is just a cruel joke......

[Andy Hughes]

Bogey, Inwood on Long Island has 3 in a row on the front. Maybe 3,4 and 5 but it has been a few years now.  I don't feel like it is a flaw--though it certainly was on my mind while playing them back-to-back-to-back.  

(PS, and that was 3 questions  )

[cary lichtenstein]

Other oddities:

I believe North Shore CC in Highland Park or Glenco Illinois has 11 straigh par 4's and Maroon Creek in Aspen has every other hole a par 3 starting with #7.

Oooops, I meant Lake Shore CC in Highland Park or Glenco, not North Shore

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Other oddities:

I believe North Shore CC in Highland Park or Glenco Illinois has 11 straigh par 4's and Maroon Creek in Aspen has every other hole a par 3 starting with #7.

I don't remember that being the case at North Shore although I do remember at least three of the par fives being directly followed by par threes.  That being said I know they have done some renovation out there so it may have been different in previous years.

[Jason Topp]

Town and Country finishes 3,5,5,5,3.  It is actually very fun.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Bishop Auckland in County Durham has three consecutive par 5s from the 2nd to the 4th.  It has four par 5s on the front nine, three par 3s and only two par 4s. http://www.bagc.co.uk/

It's quite a scenic course and begins and ends with short par 4s (283 and 276 yards respectively).

[Sam Morrow]

Gus Wortham in Houston (the original Houston CC) has three straight short par 5's, 2-4. Sadly these days those 3 holes are lined by hobos and prostitutes.

[Forrest Richardson]

Mark fails to disclose the rest of The Bishop's oddity:

4, 5, 5, 5, 3, 4, 3, 3, 5 = 37, and, continuing on the back, par 3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 = 35.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael, kind of unrelated but something that struck me the other day:

It might be my imagination, but it seems to me that on the various public courses I play, I see more than a fair share of  Par 3 12th holes followed by Par 5 13th holes, i.e. a routing consciously patterned, it seems, after Augusta. Now THAT might be bad routing, in that I can't imagine how this pattern could come up so often 'naturally' if fnding the best holes and the best routing were the primary objective.

In comparison, 3 Par 5s in a row seems not only not bad, but positively inspired, and respectful of the site itself.

But that may all be in my imagination, in which case I've created a straw man (is that the term?)

Peter

[Justin Gale]

An Australian example that comes to mind is at Strathfield GC, Sydney. 8,9,10 I think. All gettable in two, and not overly inspiring holes to play.

[Doug Siebert]

Well my home course doesn't do the par 3 12th and par 5 13th homage to Augusta thing, but it does have a very rigid progression that has always struck me as too formula derived:

4 5 4 3 4 5 4 3 4 = 36 -- on both nines.

Interestingly, this was the only 18 hole course in town when I was a kid, and then about 20 years ago another was added -- with the exact same par progression, again on both nines!

Luckily the next 18 holer added after that has a 3-5-3-5-5-3 stretch on the back nine to conteract the formula approach of its elder brethren

[Clay Huestis]

Doug,

Given the sequence of pars at your course and that you are from Iowa, I would guess your home course was designed by Robert Bruce Harris?  That's a bit of a signature of his (along with huge greens and bunkers set one gang mower width from the greens).

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Another course with 3 consecutive par 5s (sort of) is the Dunes at Sevilla (the Art Hills course near World Woods).  17 & 18 are par 5s, and so is number 1.  So if you start on 10, or play in a shotgun (which they do a lot there) you get 3 par 5s in a row.  Not sure if that will remain the same when their current remodeling is finished.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

As Forrest's post implies, at Bishop Auckland you play the par-4 6th and then don't play another 2-shotter until the 13th!

As Peter points out three consecutive par 5s might well be positively inspired.  Ballybunion Old has consecutive par 5s (4th and 5th) and consecutive par 3s (14th and 15th) the latter part of a sequence of holes in which you don't play a 2-shotter between the 11th and 17th.  Cypress Point also has consecutive par 5s (5th and 6th) and consecutive par 3s (15th and 16th).  Both are inspired courses.

[Matthew Rose]

Well my home course doesn't do the par 3 12th and par 5 13th homage to Augusta thing, but it does have a very rigid progression that has always struck me as too formula derived:

4 5 4 3 4 5 4 3 4 = 36 -- on both nines.

I've seen a lot of courses with this routing pattern, or something very close to it. Another one is 4-5-3-4-4-4-5-3-4.

I see more 2nd/11th par-fives and more 8th/17th par-threes than any other, to the point where they are almost cliches on a public course. In fact, if I'm going to play a muni I've never seen before, I usually predict that I'll see this on a scorecard; it is funny how many times I end up correct.

The penultimate par-3 thing is particularly noteworthy....I've always had a theory that perhaps that has to do with the architect running out of space towards the end of a 9 hole loop.

[Doug Siebert]

Doug,

Given the sequence of pars at your course and that you are from Iowa, I would guess your home course was designed by Robert Bruce Harris?  That's a bit of a signature of his (along with huge greens and bunkers set one gang mower width from the greens).

Yes, you are correct, it is an RBH design (Finkbine in Iowa City)  When I was a kid the bunkers were set far away from the greens as you describe, though there was a lot of work done in the late 80s to mid 90s to redo all the greenside and fairway bunkers (moving some, adding some, removing some) so that RBH trademark is no more.  Plus a number of the greens were reworked as well (they are still huge, but some changes were made to them that added falloffs on the sides and back for some, nasty new pin positions, etc.)  So perhaps other than the 4-5-4-3 etc. thing it would be much more difficult to recognize the architect today.

Luckily with RBH no one in GCA will complain that his original intent has been completely altered by all the changes

Now if we could just get a good tree removal program and thin out or at least limb up the forests that line most fairways!

[Mitch Hantman]

Polo Trace in Delray Beach, Fl has three par 5's on holes 9, 10, 11.

[Casey Wade]

In Conroe, North of Houston, Walden on Lake Conroe has 3 par 5's consecutively.  Numbers 9, 10, and 11.

http://www.waldengolf.com/scorecard.html


Here is a link to their website.

Walden on Lake Conroe is a really neat golf course designed by Robert Von Hagge.  I'm not the biggest fan of Von Hagge's courses, but he has got a few that I really like.  This one and TPC at The Woodlands, oops, EAST Course, included.

[Sam Morrow]

In Conroe, North of Houston, Walden on Lake Conroe has 3 par 5's consecutively.  Numbers 9, 10, and 11.

http://www.waldengolf.com/scorecard.html


Here is a link to their website.

Walden on Lake Conroe is a really neat golf course designed by Robert Von Hagge.  I'm not the biggest fan of Von Hagge's courses, but he has got a few that I really like.  This one and TPC at The Woodlands, oops, EAST Course, included.

Casey,


 I can't believe we didn't think of Walden, thanks!

[Mat Dunmyer]

Speaking of interenting routing and layout- Forrest Highlands Canyon Course that Weiskopf/ Morrish did has a Par 3 every other hole starting at #4-#14- the card looks like this

Front 9- 4 4 5 3 5 3 4 3 4
Back 9-  3 4 3 5 3 5 4 4 5

That's 6 Par 3's and 5 Par 5's

Interesting course, and funny part is you don't realize the Par 3's every other hole until you look at the card after the round!!

Mat