News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 12:52:16 AM »
I live in the DC area.  there have been fifteen or so new courses in the last five years.  Some have been high end but some have also been some affordable courses built.  One of them is in my county.

http://www.compasspointegolf.com/view.asp?id=69&page=1177

Even less expensive are Eisenhower GC and Bay Hills GC.   In the same county as Compass Point.
I think we hear so much about the high end courses that the less expensive go unnoticed.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Rich Goodale

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 02:26:07 AM »
I will never again criticize the game of golf now that I know that the alternative is 4 hours of bowling.....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2007, 03:05:58 AM »
Golfers are slow, not courses...almost always...long green-to-tee commutes notwithstanding.

Sully

You don't think 25 yard fairways with harsh rough doesn't slow the game down?  With a reasonably competent 4-ball on a course like Pennard (little rough) I can usually play in 3.5 hours - unless of course GCAers are involved!  It took 5.5 hours to play Hillside last weekend and we had nowhere to go!  I was a broken man after 9 holes - dumping equipment and clubs in the halfway house - down to 6 sticks, 6 pegs and 3 balls (I figured if any of these ran out I would quit).  I was more or less out for a walk and a smoke on the back 9 despite being in a comp - I just didn't care.  Every single hole we trudged through the rough up the dunes.  My ankles were killin afterwards!  If these dunesy courses are gonna have solid rough up all the banks - give me a flatter course anyday!  I have a terribly feeling that when I get to Dornoch and Nairn in a few days time the rough will be awful (I am very hopeful it won't be), but I bet Brora and Golspie control it.  Why is it championship courses feel the need to grow hay on a golf course?

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 03:06:43 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2007, 04:10:17 AM »
Yes Sean you are correct in that long rough does slow the game down but there is a need to look a little futher than just that. If the rough is very long then players need to alter their game plan to suit the conditions. In this case it means taking a short and therefor (hopefully) straighter club to ensure hitting the fairway. The problem is often players are not able or willing to be flexible and blame the course for their own failings.

If your playing a course like Hillside then it probably going to be tough but looking at the handicap list you might notice that the club has players with 24 handicap and above who seem to manage to play round avoiding the rough most of the time.

Rough only slows down the play when players go into it to often although I agree that sometmes rough can be over the top. I prefer open courses with little rough but maybe penal bunkers like TOC.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2007, 04:51:27 AM »
Trevino is a bitter jerk who is now trying to blame other people once again for problems he sees in the game.  I have a couple of ideas...stick to courses you can afford and practice or take lessons so you lose fewer balls.  The game is fine, the people who play it need to be fixed.

Taking lessons to not lose balls isn't my problem - I'm a +1 handicap.

Sticking to courses I can afford isn't my problem - I own my own company.

I simply hate losing balls. There's no reason to build so many water hazards, tall rough etc. Pinehurst #2 has none of that. I love playing it. It is very challenging (never broken par there) and very strategic. And I could probably play a whole year with one ball if the ball wold last that long. To me it is the epitome of design for what Trevino is talking about. While it's hard for good golfers, bad golfers shoot the same scores they shoot everywhere else.

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2007, 07:12:14 AM »
Steve,

How many different courses do you play in a year?  I understand at your level you may have to play some tournament courses you don't like but why do you play recreational golf at courses you do not like.  If you are losing balls why not hit less club off the tee?  Why not hire a forecaddie when available...I would rather lose balls then hire a forecaddie, but that is just me.

Have you been lucky enough yet to play some of the destination resorts or private clubs in the mold of Bandon that have been built lately.  Have you ever been so lucky as you are today as a golfer with a wad of cash and a solid stick?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 07:14:38 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2007, 10:50:10 AM »
A few thoughts.

First, I know Lee and don't think he is a bitter jerk.  Shame on JK for that!

Second, I don't think there is that much "wisdom" in his comments.  I say that because I believe that:

1.  There is sort of a "natural" participation rate in golf.  If USGA or someone tried to build play, we might raise it a few %.

2.  I think most studies show that its the embarrasment of learning and then the time that preclude new play.  If we want more golfers, we need to focus on getting kids at least mildly proficient, especially girls.

3.  Last years hot clubs and balls are sold at tremendous discounts.  Courses are reducing greens fees from a few years ago and are less crowded.  In many ways a great time to start golf.

4. Courses are all over the map in cost and difficulty.  As hinted above, when a new golfer whiffs seven times, I don't think its the lakes that are discouraging.

That said, I agree that less water hazards and lighter rough, and perhaps fewer bunkers all make play faster and less frustrating. Of course, operators and gca's have known that for a long time, so Lee saying it is nothing really new, or wise.

When there is water on the typical course, its not there because the gca wants to make a tough course.  Its there because the project requires either detention for regional flood control, or the developer wants some water views, and of course, we always need at least one irrigation pond.

If the rough is deep, the super hasn't cut it, for rain, lack of manpower, etc.  I doubt more than 1% of US courses purposely keep rough deep to toughen the course

Bunkers?  Well the gca is mostly at fault, because its their artistic expression, but it may be influenced by the need to sell houses as well.  In those cases, once the lots are sold, its not uncommon for courses to do a bunker removal program.

Short version:  Just as only 3% of golfers really care about the architecture, I think perhaps 3% max of golfers who quit or don't start do so because of the architecture.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

redanman

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2007, 11:02:28 AM »
"Long and Tight" (ed.)

anyone else disagree with that part?  Anyone else read it?

I don't think Tille nor Ross, nor Flynn designed tight golf courses.  Those do NOT get people around really fast.

Well-contoured greens are great equalizers and they do not need to be real fast (no less stupid fast) to provide a challenge.

Therein lies the  combo of fun and challenge.

Lee was right about the part of less water and hazards (just fill in that swamp/wetland ) in the old days/designs. READ: NOT LOSING A BALL.  Environmental restraints prevent that sort of thing today. IS that the most harmful change from old to modern architecture?

Brent Hutto

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2007, 11:18:19 AM »
I simply hate losing balls. There's no reason to build so many water hazards, tall rough etc. Pinehurst #2 has none of that. I love playing it. It is very challenging (never broken par there) and very strategic. And I could probably play a whole year with one ball if the ball wold last that long. To me it is the epitome of design for what Trevino is talking about. While it's hard for good golfers, bad golfers shoot the same scores they shoot everywhere else.

We need a term of art for the style of golf-course architecture that Steve describes here. For my part it's pretty much the holy grail in my education and travel as a GCA-nut.

I'm at the opposite end of the skill spectrum from Mr. Kline so I hit a lot of bad shots and I don't have very good skills at recovering from them. But my experience and preferences is exactly as he describes. Here's a scenario. Let's say I hit a 5-wood approach shot that slices 20 yards and comes up 40 yards short of the green...

Course #1) At a mediocre golf course, I walk to the vicinity of where the ball was headed and either drop a ball at the margin of a lateral hazard or tramp around in the tall grass for several minutes locating the ball and then try to hack it out to the short grass. Then I pitch it on the green and usually two-putt for my double-bogey.

Course #2) At a good golf course, I walk straight to the ball sitting in an inch or two of rough (or a fairway bunker) and try to figure out how the hell I'm going to get it on the green anywhere in the general vicinity of the hole. Then I skank it somewhere on or around the green and maybe get down in two for bogey or more often take three more strokes for my double-bogey.

Those two 6's look exactly the same on the scorecard but in the former case I took 10 minutes and got frustrated making double and in the latter I took maybe 6 minutes and got to at least try an interesting recovery shot.

In my experience, there are three of Course #1 being built today for every one of Course #2. Nothing wrong with the former but it just isn't as fun a game hemmed in by hay and water. Maybe more challenging, definitely less fun.

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2007, 11:20:19 AM »
What makes golf today the most fun it has ever been is the diversity of designs available.  Lets not squash that with trying to satisfy everyone with every course.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2007, 12:05:36 PM »
I agree that, with today's equipment, it is easier to become a decent golfer, and that there is no shortage of golf courses from which to choose.  The problem I see is that, particularly in metropolitan areas, there are very few quality, affordable public courses located in or near the city.  

In Denver, for example, there is really only one municipal course worth playing.  Not surprisingly, it's quite crowded.  We have some very good, affordable courses in the suburbs, but they're all 30-40 minutes from the city center and, because many of them are lined with houses, often feature long distances between greens and tees and the result is that a walking golfer will find it next to impossible to get around in under 4 1/2 hours.  If you can't play much golf during the week, you pretty much have to devote 7 hours on a weekend to play golf and many people, especially parents of young children like me and my friends, just can't do that very often.  I'm sure many cities have it worse than Denver.  

I largely agree with Trevino--we could do with a lot more 6500-7000 yard courses, with shorter distances between greens and tees, preferably closer to city centers.  Hopefully, the new Doak course at the present Mira Vista will fill this need in the Denver area.  

Kavanaugh may think that I'm whining or that I should just join a club.  But, perhaps naively, I continue to believe that public and even municipal golf courses can offer strategic, challenging golf and not just be glorified driving ranges.  I think the models of Rustic Canyon, Wild Horse and the Mines can and should be replicated elsewhere.  

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2007, 12:08:30 PM »
5.  Will one guy on this site with over 300 posts tell me that his situation as a golfer has not improved since joining this site.  Anyone who has met Tom Doak or Bill Coore excluded.

Tough call.

I blew out my knee and became a dad, neither of which has helped me with more opportunities to play.

On the other hand, I have more invites to play great courses that are currently unused than most!

On balance I'd say my situation has improved.

There are plenty of inexpensive sub 7000 yard courses for the average joe to play. Of course, most of the folks on here don't like to stoop to play them, but that just leaves them less crowded for the rest of us! Slow play is unfortunate and widespread, but it's the golfers more than the courses, imho.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:14:37 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2007, 12:16:29 PM »
as i think about this thread, the issue of people playing from tees not commensurate with their skill level came up

i will NEVER understand why people go too far back..it's like they don't want to shoot a good score or something...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2007, 12:19:49 PM »
Paul, there's plenty of us high handicap bozos whose problem isn't length. I can shoot similar scores from just about anywhere, save the occasional beast like The Ocean Course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2007, 12:20:16 PM »
I will never again criticize the game of golf now that I know that the alternative is 4 hours of bowling.....

Here here! ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2007, 12:22:35 PM »
Yes Sean you are correct in that long rough does slow the game down but there is a need to look a little futher than just that. If the rough is very long then players need to alter their game plan to suit the conditions. In this case it means taking a short and therefor (hopefully) straighter club to ensure hitting the fairway. The problem is often players are not able or willing to be flexible and blame the course for their own failings.

If your playing a course like Hillside then it probably going to be tough but looking at the handicap list you might notice that the club has players with 24 handicap and above who seem to manage to play round avoiding the rough most of the time.

Rough only slows down the play when players go into it to often although I agree that sometmes rough can be over the top. I prefer open courses with little rough but maybe penal bunkers like TOC.

Jon

There is always the case to be made for playing three 8 irons rather than driver and whatever.  Though there is always the pesky business of not hitting that last 8 iron wild.  While I agree that guys at my level are a bit more accurate with an 8 iron over a driver, but it doesn't really help the speed of play unless loads of guys are playing this ultra-conservative style of golf.  I have never seen it done except by the odd player or two.  At some point (and I think 25 yard wide fairways is well beyond reasonable), the setup of a course has to be considered in trying to speed up play.  

Speed of play has always been my biggest beef about championship courses and the main reason I don't tend to enjoy playing them as much as some other courses.  To be honest, I much prefer to play championship courses as a 2 ball because there is much less chance to be looking for balls in the rough.  I see it an awful lot.  My guys can get around North Wales in 3.5 hours easy, but they take over 4.5 hours to get around Conwy.  The people haven't changed, so slow play, to a large degree, must be down to the course.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2007, 12:23:02 PM »
Paul, there's plenty of us high handicap bozos whose problem isn't length. I can shoot similar scores from just about anywhere, save the occasional beast like The Ocean Course.

Hi George :)

I don't know what you typically shoot, but for arguments sake let's say it is around 100

say a course has 5 sets of tees, 7200, 6800, 6400, 6000, and 5500.....I would think 6400 or even the 6000 would be long enough..do you agree?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kavanaugh

Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2007, 12:29:06 PM »
Tim,

The 2008 Pub-Links is in Denver at an affordable course.  I don't see what more a guy could want in a course then what Murphy Creek offers for $40.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2007, 12:35:05 PM »
Paul, there's plenty of us high handicap bozos whose problem isn't length. I can shoot similar scores from just about anywhere, save the occasional beast like The Ocean Course.

Hi George :)

I don't know what you typically shoot, but for arguments sake let's say it is around 100

say a course has 5 sets of tees, 7200, 6800, 6400, 6000, and 5500.....I would think 6400 or even the 6000 would be long enough..do you agree?

Sure it would. I'm simply saying that I could play the 7200 yard course, shoot a similar number, and keep up just the same. I hit the ball far enough, play ready golf, don't search for lost balls, etc.

Maybe my game is just odd, but I lose as many balls teeing off with fairway woods or hybrids as I do with my driver. And a course of that length, with that many tee boxes, I'm walking the whole course, anyway, unless the tips are positioned such that there's walk-backs. Same thing goes for if I'm forced to ride.

The only thing that would make a substantial difference would be if I played the 5500 yard markers, I could tee off with 7 irons and probably play quicker and score better. But I haven't run into too many situations where I couldn't keep up.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:36:53 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2007, 12:41:19 PM »
Tim,

The 2008 Pub-Links is in Denver at an affordable course.  I don't see what more a guy could want in a course then what Murphy Creek offers for $40.

John,

As I said, Denver has it better than many cities--we have the likes of Murphy Creek, Riverdale Dunes, etc.  But, those courses are at least 30 minutes away from the city center and, in part because of how modern courses are built (emphasis on carts, long distances between holes), they take 5 hours to play on a weekend.  That adds up to a heavy time commitment and discourages adults and children from playing.  

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:from Lee Trevino (from Geoff S's site):
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2007, 12:46:01 PM »
Some questions.

1.  Please name a town in the country that does not provide affordable golf.  Affordable being cheaper than bowling for four hours.

2.  Please tell me what Trevino is recommending that we do to grow golf.  He could get behind affordable simple golf and get a course built in the rural areas of Texas in six months if he believed a word of what he is saying.  

3.  Please send me a self addressed box that will hold a set of clubs if you need a perfectly nice set that is good enough for a beginner to enjoy the game.  If you don't want to mess with me just tell me the name of the nicest private club in your area and I will arrange for one of their members to give you a set.  Happy golfers are generous people.

4.  Please explain why if you think play is too slow you do not either play first in the morning or late in the day.  Why do you deserve to tee off at prime time and play at your leisure if it makes others uncomfortable?  One way to get good tee times is to pay the pro for lessons or maybe buy something in his shop instead of at Dicks.

5.  Will one guy on this site with over 300 posts tell me that his situation as a golfer has not improved since joining this site.  Anyone who has met Tom Doak or Bill Coore excluded.

6.  Please tell me what part of this earlier statement by me is not 100% true;  Golf has never been easier to learn, as affordable, open to people of all races and religions, a road to unlimited riches for the best in the world, architecturally diverse and just plain more fun then it is today.

 


Nicely put.

Although I have to dispute your point #4.  I teed off at 4:40 on the second longest day of the year and played my last hole in the dark...on a private course.  I'm still bitter.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:49:20 PM by Paul Stephenson »