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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0


Will increased bunker depth become a design trend ?

I'd would hope that this would happen over growing ultra thick rough everywhere, given the choice.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Phoenix ?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 01:20:09 PM »
Doubt it will happen, but I still think a drivable Par 4 for a finisher would be great. The tournament sort of ended when Tiger made par on 17. Yes, he was still alive on 18 but to have the 18th be potentially a:

2 = win
3 = playoff
4+ = loss would be great theater when the leaders are not in the last group.

Other than The Old Course and Carnegie Abbey, I can't think of one drivable par 4 closer.

18 at Prestwick?

As to the impact, I took away from this that the steep banks around the bunkers and ditches caused the most problems.  They could also be replicated without the real deep rough and still come up with a reasonable facsimile.

I think some future courses will feature deeper, steep faced grass bunkers to toughen up the hazards associated with missing a fw.  The sand could stay or go.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Jeff,

Is wall to wall, deep, lush rough really strategic ?

Is it one dimensional ?

Does it make anyone think more than one thought ?
1  Don't go in it, and if you do, try to be as close to the
   green as you can when you do go in it.

Whereas, a deep bunker or two or three creates more focused strategic or tactical choices.

And, wall to wall, deep, lush rough unduely punishes all golfers, whereas deep fairway bunkers only punish a few golfers.  

Your thoughts

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
More half-par holes, especially those bridging par 3's and par-4's. #8 illustrated something you don't see often, and short 4's that have set-up options that make them driveable. The only real downside to these interesting types of holes is that they could cause slow play problems.

Mike_Cirba

Patrick,

When I first head that Fazio/Marzolf were fiddling with Oakmont I had the exact same apprehension that I did other times at Merion, et.al.

Further, when I heard that they were messing with bunker location, size, proximity to fairway, and depth, I must admit to seeing visions of the really fugly new rightside bunker on the 18th hole we both saw at another US Open course by a different "Open doctor" a few years back.

From a philosophical perspective, I still don't like what I've heard at Oakmont, frankly.   I don't like the idea that bunkers need to be moved out to somewhere around 280-350 yards to be effective.   I don't like it one bit, Sam I am.

However, I now have to admit that I have a new open mind about depth, something which I argued against when the bunkers at Merion were deepened.   I just figured that they would be a horror show for the members while remaining a scant inconvenience for the pro, who would just use their 64 degree wedge to place their next shot from a perfect lie in the bunker to within 4 feet of the hole.

What I saw this past weekend made me reevaluate all of that party-line and I think it should make other fair-minded individuals who enjoy a certain amount of preservationist purity reconsider their own personal prejudices.

The simply fact is that the deeper fairway bunkers ended up functioning much like the deep pot bunkers on the great links courses, in that they were definitely needed to be avoided lest the player give up somewhere between 1/2 and 1 shot.   More importantly, greenside bunkers were no longer a place of refuge but instead a very iffy proposition for a lot of reasons, but not the least of which was depth.

It seems to me that at some level of depth, spin becomes less effective because of the more oblique angle at which the ball lands on the green.

It seems to me that this causes a first bounce, "skidding effect", where the ball is coming in at such a low angle as to be much more uncontrollable than is normally the case.

So, although I still have some serious philosophical objections to the continued tinkering with great classic courses, especially by those architects who profess no real admiration or respect for those who came before them, I also think it's important for all of us to understand that at the very highest championship levels of the game, we need to consider very open-mindedly what might be the factors that can actually challenge the most talented players in the world in today's modern technological world and at least be willing to concede that we may need to adapt our thinking to think of creative ways to deal with modern realities and variables beyond what we might agree with or wlllingly accept, yet can no longer deny.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 10:14:34 PM by MPCirba »

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
What architectural features will emerge/reemerge and become popular as a result of the U.S. Open being conducted at Oakmont ?

And, WHY ?

I have to agree with David Tepper - the massive tree removal is the topic that seems to have created the most buzz, at least from the view of the average Joe golfer.  Deep bunkers, high rough, fast greens with severe contours - we've seen it before.   But, cut down 5000 trees :o  Now that's different!

I've encountered about a 50-50 mix of those who are OK with it and those who are simply shocked.  I think it will lead to some lively discussion at clubs around the country and perhaps a shift in opinion about the role of trees on a golf course.  I guarantee there is plenty of murmuring going on at a lot of clubs with tree-lined fairways.

Tom

Phil_the_Author

Pat & Mike, er Mucci & Sweeney that is, The 18th green at BPB has always been where it is located today. Some have thought that it was further up the hill at one time but this isn't true.

Was it ever drivable? I know of it only having ever been done one time. I witnessed my brother do it in 1988. Believe it or not it was ALL carry!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:20:01 AM by Philip Young »

TEPaul

"What architectural features will emerge/reemerge and become popular as a result of the U.S. Open being conducted at Oakmont ? And, WHY?"

I believe I will direct my stockbroker to invest in some Asplundh Corp.

After the US Open i suspect a whole lot of trees on golf courses across America are going to be in world of hurt quite soon.

Another Oakmont hazard feature will re-emerge in architecture---it already has in Maryland----The Drainage Ditch as a hazard feature. Simple and effective in multiple ways.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 02:31:27 PM by TEPaul »

Tim Gerrish

  • Karma: +0/-0
I agree with Tom, lets hope the best things 'learned' from Oakmont are:

1.  How effective tree removal can be
2.  How ditches can effect strategy

Especially on public golf courses.

Let's not see fast green speeds, tight fairways and multiple short par 4's that will slow round on public courses even more.