California State Amateur

[David Ober]

So David/Matt - thoughts on the prospects of playing State Am at Lakeside next year - good/bad/indifferent?  I posted earlier that that course seems like a let down after Pebble and MPCC - most courses would, that's for sure - but it remains odd to me that if it's gonna happen in SoCal, Lakeside is the choice and not Riviera or LACC or BelAir... what do you actual players think?

BTW, when we did course rating at MPCC, "typical summer green speeds" were given to us as 10- 10.5.  That's what the course rating is based on. They sure did diabolically speed things up for you guys.  But it it was a problem, an easy answer would be just leave them at normal speeds next time.

TH

The greens at 10.5 - 11 and receptive would bring a lot more players into the mix, that's for sure. I just can't compete with the young guys when the greens are extremely firm, since I hit it shortish and very low. Many holes on the Shore you couldn't even find a pitch mark when you hit a full wedge into the green, which means big trouble for me.

Regarding Lakeside: I know that the SCGA is in talks with both Riviera and LACC, but neither has committed to anything yet. Personally, I love Lakeside. I played it for the first time this year in the Kelly Cup, and I'm looking forward to qualifying again next year. I also enjoy Oakmont. True, they're not Pebble/MPCC, but they're both very nice courses. Certainly both better than Poppy IMHO.

And I love the whole concept of a NorCal/SoCal rotation -- as long as we don't end up with middle tier courses in SoCal down the road, which is something I think a lot of SoCal guys fear. If the top L.A. clubs step up, we'll be okay. But honestly, there are enough very good golf course down here for us to be in good shape even if LACC and Riv never participate (though we're all hoping they do, of course).

That's my take. :-)

[David Ober]

Patrick,

Yes we do tend to exaggerate green speeds but not on this occasion. The greens really were 13.5-14, and the winds really were 20-30 mph. I'm not sure how it remained playable - I pondered that question as well - but the short answer is that somehow, it did. Sensible hole locations probably had something to do with it.

The practice green which David Ober stimped at 12+ was noticably slower than the greens on either course.

I think that part of the reason it remained on the edge of playable is due to the moisture in the air and on the greens. At seaside, it's just not ever possible to completely bake the greens when it's overcast. The little bit of moisture on the greens must have been just enough to keep it playable.

[David Ober]

Patrick,

Yes we do tend to exaggerate green speeds but not on this occasion. The greens really were 13.5-14, and the winds really were 20-30 mph. I'm not sure how it remained playable - I pondered that question as well - but the short answer is that somehow, it did. Sensible hole locations probably had something to do with it.

The practice green which David Ober stimped at 12+ was noticably slower than the greens on either course.

I'm not an expert on wind velocities, but on the exposed holes of the Dunes on Monday, it was a four club wind when I was on the course, and a three club to four club wind on Tuesday on the Shore when I was on the course.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

I'm with you that a NorCal/SoCal rotation makes great sense for our StateAm.  It was up here for so long because they had a rather great venue at which to hold it; now that that is gone, trading off seems fine.

But I think your fears are already realized.  At least compared to Pebble Beach and MPCC, you already ARE playing at "middle tier" courses at Lakeside and Oakmont next year.  Oh, each is fine enough, don't get me wrong.. but wouldn't you agree they're each a big step down from Pebble/MPCC?

None of Riviera or BelAir or LACC would have been this large step down.  Not that I have any stake in this personally, but it concerns me that the FIRST TIME in SoCal, these are the venues.  I gather it was a matter of logistics... but still....

If Lakeside/Oakmont are the best SoCal can offer, perhaps we do it three years up here for every one down there.

 

[Mike Benham]

Patrick, I own a stimpmeter. I stimped the practice green on Monday morning at just over 12. It was soaking wet.

David - Just curious but what does stimping the greens do for you in regards to tournament golf?

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

I played a practice round with David and it made him very careful. I did see one birdie putt of his on Monday at the 11th green of The Dunes, the pin was way back left and he was above the hole. He put a solid stroke on it and I thought it would be six feet past, it went in dead center. No sign of nerves on that hole.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob:

There is no doubt that David must be a fine and careful putter; he wouldn't get to the the great player he is without being such.

The question is more the role that using a stimpmeter to measure a practice green plays in become such a fine putter.  

Does knowing a green is 10 make him fire away with impugnity, and 12 makes him careful?

It just seems odd to me to make putting this scientific.  It also must make things quite strange on the many courses whose practice putting greens are a far different speed than the greens on the course.

Thus I have the same question Mike has....

But in the the answer likely lies and explanation as to why I am off and on with my putting and David drills dowhill putts at MPCC.

 

[Dennis_Harwood]

Patrick,

Yes we do tend to exaggerate green speeds but not on this occasion. The greens really were 13.5-14, and the winds really were 20-30 mph. I'm not sure how it remained playable - I pondered that question as well - but the short answer is that somehow, it did. Sensible hole locations probably had something to do with it.

The practice green which David Ober stimped at 12+ was noticably slower than the greens on either course.

I think that part of the reason it remained on the edge of playable is due to the moisture in the air and on the greens. At seaside, it's just not ever possible to completely bake the greens when it's overcast. The little bit of moisture on the greens must have been just enough to keep it playable.

Here are the numbers that I retained--

On monday the Dunes played to an average of 76 and the Shore to an average of 78-- The figures on Tues were approximatly 1/2 shot easier on both courses, but that was because the wind "came up" about 45 mins later in the day on tues (started about 11:15 on tues vs 10:30 on mon so some of the field completed when wind started)--

The most difficult holes were #14 on the Dunes which played at an average of 4.18 for a 177 yard par 3 (with 15 doubles and 26 "others"-#15 at the Dunes had 13 "others" - no other hole was in double figures for "others")- Next was 9 at the Shore at a 4.12 average followed by #13 Shore- 5.01 and #15 Dunes 5.92-

Those are the most exposed holes, which shows the impact of wind-

[David Ober]

Patrick, I own a stimpmeter. I stimped the practice green on Monday morning at just over 12. It was soaking wet.

David - Just curious but what does stimping the greens do for you in regards to tournament golf?

I initially started stimping greens to answer the Internet bozos who would declare with 100% certainty that nobody who isn't on the PGA Tour ever plays greens that are over 11 on the Stimp.

Now I do it more out of curiosity than to give me any edge or help with my putting. I'm also always interested as to how close my initial guess is to reality. After doing it for several years now, I'm usually within 1/2 a foot or so most of the time.

The greens at MPCC were, without a doubt, the fastest I have ever played.

The fastest greens I have played, ranked in order:

1. 13+ MPCC Shore -- 2007 Cal Am
2. 13+ MPCC Dunes -- 2007 Cal Am
3. 12.5+ SCGA Golf Course -- 2005(?) Cal Am Qualifier
4. 12+ Hillcrest CC 2004(?) SCGA Amateur
4. 12+ SCGA Golf Course -- Multiple other qualifiers
4. 12+ Bear Creek GC -- 2006 SCGA Mid-Am

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Now I hope you don't include anyone here in the term "internet bozos."  

Having stimped a lot of greens, I must say I had my doubts about some of your claims.  But then I remembered that when I do them, they're normal speed.  You do them prior to events, when clubs do tend to try and speed things up.  Thus I no longer doubt any of your claims.

You just do understand something some true internet bozos seem to fail to grasp - that anything over 10 is REALLY REALLY fast.  

In any case, care to take a stab at my further comments re the decrease in quality of our State Am sites starting next year?  In all seriousness, moving this to Lakeside/Oakmont can't be a good thing for the prestige/quality of the event; not compared to where it's been held for many years, anyway.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

David; have you ever stimped any local courses under "normal" conditions....if so what were the highest readings and where?

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon - I'm sure David can answer for himself, but in case you're curious about NorCal, I can say that I've yet to see anything higher than 10.5 for course rating purposes.  There have been a few that claimed higher, but when we did them ourselves did not pan out.

This doesn't mean to say they can't get faster - as I say in my post to David.  But under normal, non-tournament conditions (which is what we're supposed to use for course rating), that's as fast as I've seen... or heard of.

TH

[Mike Benham]

I initially started stimping greens to answer the Internet bozos who would declare with 100% certainty that nobody who isn't on the PGA Tour ever plays greens that are over 11 on the Stimp.

Any chance that you can acquire the appropriate technology to tell the other Internet bozos whether or not there really is global warming?

[Matt_Cohn]

Regarding the site change,

For me, it's still the state championship. The change of site won't affect my personal desire to play but if I'm lucky enough to qualify, I might not be as giddy with anticipation as I was this year.

I agree that some of the dreamers may opt out of qualifying - I don't know anyone who really dreams of Lakeside, although I'm sure it's a nice course. I've played Oakmont, and it was fine too.

The problem, though, is not with the dreamers but with the very top players, the ones who can play in whichever tournaments they choose. I don't think that the State Am at a "middle-tier" venue will be a big priority for them; guys who would show up at Pebble or MPCC may very well skip Lakeside. There are just too many other great tournaments out there. Why play a state tournament when you could play a national one? Other than a venue like MPCC or Pebble, there aren't many reasons.

If more top players skip the event, I think that would create a problem in terms of prestige. The question is whether those players would reappear at "top-tier" venues in following years.

Maybe this is old news but my sources tell me:
2009 Lake Merced
2011 Olympic (tentative)

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Many thanks - that was what I was trying to get at.  The slippage in prestige courses may well have just the effect you state; and it's way more important how it's perceived by the real players than the dreamers.  Our State Am has always had a very high quality field... this slippage might coincide with a slippage in that also, just as you describe... and that would be a shame.

Lake Merced pretty much equals Lakeside/Oakmont to me... maybe LM is a little better, but not much.  All are pretty good courses, but not the top-notch ones this event has seen before.  If 2011 Olympic means 2010 Riviera and 2012 LACC, then we're back on track, and 08-09 can be looked at as a blip.

TH

[David Ober]

Matt:

Many thanks - that was what I was trying to get at.  The slippage in prestige courses may well have just the effect you state; and it's way more important how it's perceived by the real players than the dreamers.  Our State Am has always had a very high quality field... this slippage might coincide with a slippage in that also, just as you describe... and that would be a shame.

Lake Merced pretty much equals Lakeside/Oakmont to me... maybe LM is a little better, but not much.  All are pretty good courses, but not the top-notch ones this event has seen before.  If 2011 Olympic means 2010 Riviera and 2012 LACC, then we're back on track, and 08-09 can be looked at as a blip.

TH

I would agree that 2010 and 2012 are absolutely pivotal years for the State Am. If Riv, and/or LACC step up, then I would say we're on track.

A few others that come to mind that would work:

Valley Club of Montecito
Bel-Air
Torrey Pines (if it's in excellent shape and they take it seriously)
Rancho Santa Fe CC

Not sure of others, since I'm really a neophyte when it comes to knowing the best courses in California.

Regarding players skipping the State Am to play in other, national tournaments: I'm not sure that will be a huge factor, since National-level tournaments typically only shave off a couple players here and there from SoCal, which is already happening. I could definitely be wrong about that, though.

I love Lakeside by the way. Oakmont didn't make as much of an impression on me....

[David Ober]

David:

Now I hope you don't include anyone here in the term "internet bozos."  

TH

No one on this site qualifies as an Internet Bozo(TM) in my book.

I'm talking about the odd poster on BSG, 4GEA, and Ham'n'Egg mostly. The vast majority of guys get it, but there are some know-it-all types out there that think they understand tournament golf even though they've never played a single tournament in their entire lives.

[David Ober]

David; have you ever stimped any local courses under "normal" conditions....if so what were the highest readings and where?

Yes, I do it all the time. Most are in the 9-ish range. In SoCal, the main determining factor for green speeds seems to be temperature. The hotter it gets, the slower the greens are for the most part.

We just can't risk over-stressing the greens in the summer time, so very few inland courses get their greens running over 10.

In the winter, though, it can be a different story.

The fastest greens that I have stimped for every day play  are definitely the SCGA Golf Course. There was a period there about two years ago where the greens there were regularly 10.5 to 11.0 and I even saw them at 11.5 for normal play. But remember that the SCGA course hosts MANY tournaments and qualifiers, so it's always preparing for some tournament or other.

Another course that has consistently excellent and fast greens is Bear Creek in Murrieta. Their greens are usually 10 - 11 during the winter/spring/fall months and a bit slower in the summer, usually.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
I'm going to add what I believe to be the main reason greens run faster in the winter than in the summer. Winter=no growth...summer=lots of growth. It's not always about fear of the grass failing.
Want to see some wickedly fast bent greens in the winter, visit AZ after a couple of weeks of hard frosts in Jan.

[Matt_Cohn]

http://tinyurl.com/yvf8lu

$50? Really?

[David Ober]

http://tinyurl.com/yvf8lu

$50? Really?

That's what I paid.

I do need to calibrate mine against a real stimpmeter, because the USGA doesn't sell the real McCoy. My old one (that was stolen a year ago) was a different knock-off than the one I have now, and I calibrated it against a real one that a buddy has, and the readings were nearly identical.

Unfortunately, his was also stolen, so now I need to find a local greenskeeper that will allow me to compare my new one with a real one.

I have little doubt that they will produce nearly identical readings, since that is the whole point of creating a knock-off, but you never know....

I'll report back as soon as I have done a legitimate comparison.

[David Ober]

David,
I'm going to add what I believe to be the main reason greens run faster in the winter than in the summer. Winter=no growth...summer=lots of growth. It's not always about fear of the grass failing.
Want to see some wickedly fast bent greens in the winter, visit AZ after a couple of weeks of hard frosts in Jan.

That's true to an extent, but in Inland SoCal, it really is also about not wanting to kill the greens. We have poa annua greens here for the most part, and poa does not do well in 100 to 110 degree heat -- especially when it's cut very low. At least that's what I hear from all the greenskeepers in the area.... :-)

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
OK.
I grew up in inland CA and only worked there for about 10 years. Maybe global warming has changed things since I left.  

Yes, Poa greens when it's 110 do require some things that slow them down.
But, trust me or not, the growth issue is the #1 reason there is a seasonal difference in speed, especially in inland areas with a desert climate and a 12 month golfing season.  

[David Ober]

I think we're both probably right. And I'm open to you being more right than me. How's that for fair? :-)

[Don_Mahaffey]

I like that
Seriously, ever catch any flak when you break out the stimpmeter? Do you ask permission first or just do it? Do you share the info with fellow competitors?