California State Amateur

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, If it isn't too much to ask, assuming you even have the opportunity, could you discretly say hello to Casey Boyns for me. While you're at it, ask him what his honest evaluation of the new Shore Course? I know he was quite fond of the old.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob - I get how it can happen in stroke play - all accounts were that the greens were crazy fast, and these guys are quite deliberate in general.

But how in the hell would it happen in match play?  BOTH of them would have to seven-putt... whoa.... at some point wouldn't you just say "good-good"?

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

It seems that match play has brought out the best in some golfers games (and probably better weather).  Checkout the scorecard for Joseph Greiner, who was 7 under through 12 holes in his match today that finished in less than 2 hours.

2nd Round Match Play

Interesting results for sure.  Man that Greiner (from the home of the state HS football champion Canyon Cowboys, btw) shot 28 on the front nine!  Whoa....

  But what about that three-hole gap between matches (as I type this one match is through 11 holes and the next only .  They do go consecutively, every 10 minutes or so, right?  How can a match get three holes behind?

Mike and Tom,

Greiner won 8 and 7 but his opponent was two under when he went down.

Bob

[Matt_Cohn]

I played with Gregor Main, the kid on the wrong side of the 8&7 match the first two days. He's an AJGA All-American and a very solid player.

I think the article on ncga.com said he was "vaporized".

Ouch.


Bob,

You might not have seen my question a few posts back. How close did the Dunes come to Top 100 status?

[Matt_Cohn]

If anyone is out there for the finals, what's up with #5? It's 340 yards and the guys have played it 5, 5, 5, 6. The rest of the match looks to be well-played.

[Bob_Huntley]

Matt,

I don't know where The Dunes is placed in the ratings.

Number 5. 340 yards max.

Anderson 3 up on the tee, slices a rescue club into the ditch right. His opponent is down the middle less than 100 yards away from the pin. Anderson takes a drop and then hits a superb shot about five or six feet from the hole. Greuner pulls a wedge left into the bunker and is outside Anderson's ball. He misses the putt. Next putt conceded. Anderson miises first putt and is made to sink what seemed to be a very short one, he made it. That is how they made fives on the hole.

Bob

[David_Tepper]

For anyone who did not see the results, the Cal State Am was won by 18-year old Josh Anderson, who will be a freshman at Pepperdine in September. He beat Joe Grenier in 4&3 in the 36-hole final.

Anderson survived a play-off for a spot in the match play bracket. He won his quarterfinal in 19 holes and his semi in 20 holes.

The tournament next year will be played at the very old-school Lakeside in SoCal. That should be interesting!

[Tom Huckaby]

Lakeside next year?  We give them Pebble for years, MPCC this year, and LAKESIDE is the best the SoCals can offer in return?  Why not Riviera?  LACC?  Hell Rustic Canyon?

I love Lakeside as much as the next man - I used to play it a LOT back in the high school years, and it's the closest private club to my childhood home.  But in terms of a draw, this has to be quite a let-down for the great amateurs in our state.  It's an old-school course for sure... but nothing all that great.

Oh well... I'd guess these guys are in it for the competition way more than the course.  But fair question for our NorCal contingent:  does the chance to play Lakeside have you fired up for next year in any way?  Feeling any sort of let-down?  Does it matter at all?

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

Hmmmm...Toluca Lake, in late June, what a vacation. From the CGA site....looks like Oakmont will be part of this as an "added bonus". The Max Behr reference in the article will surely drive entries thru the roof....and if not they have a Rainville connection to fall back on .

http://www.scga.org/2007CAL_AM/CGAnews.html

I think you are correct on the letdown factor. I can only imagine that entries/interest will be a function of the tournament proper location. Once you step outside the class of PB/MPCC...then some of the qualifier sites might even be better than the real deal!

[AndrewB]

But fair question for our NorCal contingent:  does the chance to play Lakeside have you fired up for next year in any way?  Feeling any sort of let-down?  Does it matter at all?

I actually don't know anything about Lakeside, so I'm neither fired up or let-down.  That's in comparison to this year where I was really fired up to get to see and play MPCC.  Your comments about Lakeside indicate that it may not be as special an experience as past years, but it's still the State Am and I'll be excited to be there regardless, should I qualify.

MPCC will be tough to top as a venue, and I look forward to the event returning there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andrew:  your reaction would be what I expect from someone who treats this as a truly competitive exercise, as you certainly should; fair enough.  But Jon's reaction is also what I'd expect from the fringe element who views the State Am and its qualifiers as a chance to play a great golf course - and there have to be a lot of those.  Most don't actually make it to the event proper, of course.  The quantity of entries will be interesting to monitor next year.

I believe Lakeside was initially designed by Max Behr - who also of course means only paint (if that) to the vast majority of real world golfers outside of this forum.  But from what Tommy and others have posted in previous discussions about Lakeside, apparently there's not all that much Behr left anyway.

It is a pretty darn great course as it is today - please don's misunderstand me.  It's just not MPCC and sure as heck is not Pebble.

[Jon Spaulding]

It would be interesting to see the # of entries if the tournament proper were held at, say CPC versus, say Skylinks. At that point you could truly ascertain the number of people who are in it for the course alone. I suspicion that Lakeside will have a few less entries than PB in 2006.

The state am is still one of the great amateur events anywhere, with PB or MPCC as a compounding factor. Personally I could care less where it is held; and plan on qualifying in the future (or whenever Momma says OK )

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon - of course your take is a good one too.  As a struggling non-practicing 3-4 handicap who every few years harbors delusions of grandeur about making this event however, I have to say next year I wouldn't even get excited about the delusions.

If that makes any sense at all.
 

On the other hand though... next year might weed out all the guys like me... so perhaps next year might be my best year to ratchet up those delusions.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

TH,

I think you have a pretty good handle on how each "type" of player feels. In Ohio, we have had similar situations for the state amateur.

91- Inverness
92- NCR
93- Canterbury
94- Scioto


Here is where it starts to trend down a bit. Since 96, it has been played a few REALLY solid golf courses such as, Moraine, Columbus CC, Coldstream and Elyria, but nothing like the legends listed above. It is just a different day and age and it must be harder to secure those courses. Although, Canterbury did host again a few years ago.

[Jon Spaulding]

TH; "anything" can happen in 18 holes...just look at tournament scores after 18 hole qualifiers. So maintain all delusions for when they have it at MPCC or equivalent again.

Of course "anything" might be better served in a mid-am qualifier these days. Might even be worth the effort to tune up and come home to an empty house after the trip . Look at the rota for the next few years:

http://www.usmidam.org/

[Dennis_Harwood]

I must say that I hate to offend anyone, especially Andrew Biggadyke and David Ober, but I had a spot of lunch on the deck of the half-way house at No. 11 of the Dunes and as far as I was concerned the wind was not especially disturbing at all. I think it was just a normal June day zephyr!





Bob

Bob-- Just returned from NoCal, and read this thread.  The wind conditions almost made the courses unplayable in the afternoons, especially # 14 on the Dunes Course (it did have a little to do with hole location--we expected a different wind direction when the hole locations were selected).

I was Rules Chair on that course and seriously considered suspending play on a couple of occasions because the ball would not remain at rest on the putting green (I have suspended for rain and delayed for fog, but suspending for wind in Calif would have been a first)--

On at least two occasions Rule 20-3d was involked (look it up) and I was required to impose a two stroke penalty on John McClure for attempting to stablize his ball on the putting green while it was oscillating (breach of 1-2, see 20-3d/2) which put him into the playoff which he survived (thank God) by chipping in on the 3rd playoff hole to take the last match play spot-

Had the pleasure of reffing matches including the one with your Chef, who is a terrific guy, and two of Mr Anderson's matches, including his 19 hole win over Casey--

Bob, your courses are magnificent and the membership could not have been friendlier to the CGA and the contestants--

It was a great event made possible, in large part, by the hospitality of MPCC. We thank you!

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon - well, delusions being what they are, I don't even bother with USGA events.  75 guys for 2 spots kinda takes the term to a different level.  But delusions also being what they are, I do keep plugging away at least once or twice a year at events that are more my own speed... and that means MASTERS (over 40).  Mid-am is even beyond me.  

But of course, chances to play great courses change everything.  I tend to be willing to embarass myself for such things.  MY handicap just has to be low enough... and for most of the really high-level stuff, it's not!

But our friend Mr. Benham is right there.  He harbors the same delusions as me... although his are a bit more realistic.  

We discuss these things all the time.  2008 ought to be a big year for delusions.

Stay tuned.

[Adam Clayman]

Bob,
 Hoping you could share your feelings (as well as some other members) of having the competition held at your club?

ALso,

I recall that MPCC hosts the juinor Girls annually. Will that continue to be the case?

[Bob_Huntley]

I must say that I hate to offend anyone, especially Andrew Biggadyke and David Ober, but I had a spot of lunch on the deck of the half-way house at No. 11 of the Dunes and as far as I was concerned the wind was not especially disturbing at all. I think it was just a normal June day zephyr!





Bob

Bob-- Just returned from NoCal, and read this thread.  The wind conditions almost made the courses unplayable in the afternoons, especially # 14 on the Dunes Course (it did have a little to do with hole location--we expected a different wind direction when the hole locations were selected).

I was Rules Chair on that course and seriously considered suspending play on a couple of occasions because the ball would not remain at rest on the putting green (I have suspended for rain and delayed for fog, but suspending for wind in Calif would have been a first)--

On at least two occasions Rule 20-3d was involked (look it up) and I was required to impose a two stroke penalty on John McClure for attempting to stablize his ball on the putting green while it was oscillating (breach of 1-2, see 20-3d/2) which put him into the playoff which he survived (thank God) by chipping in on the 3rd playoff hole to take the last match play spot-

Had the pleasure of reffing matches including the one with your Chef, who is a terrific guy, and two of Mr Anderson's matches, including his 19 hole win over Casey--

Bob, your courses are magnificent and the membership could not have been friendlier to the CGA and the contestants--

It was a great event made possible, in large part, by the hospitality of MPCC. We thank you!

Dennis,

If you knew me, you should have realized that when it comes to trying to lessen the egos of the good players that join me for a game on the Peninsula, I invariably pooh-pooh their complaints about windy conditions. Huckaby and Benham will confirm this. However, as just ordinary folk, we do play in worse from time to time.

Tuesday, as I am the first to admit was brutal.

The last three days of the Tournament were played in ideal conditions. On Sunday we teed off after the finalists and it was like playing in Palm Beach.

Thank you for your comments on the Club. We enjoyed the event and the superb golf that was displayed by the contestants.

I had one regret after the event and that was when I discovered that Joe Greiner, the young man that had 22 birdies in 40 holes of Match Play, had no family or groupies supporting him in the 36 hole final. The winner, an even younger player had his professional and coach on the bag plus other family members. There was one other blemish on an otherwise perfect day was when Greiner, using a golf cart as he had no caddie, was impeded in his progress in getting to the next tee by the spectators in their own golf carts blocking his way. I think the CGA should issue an edict that the player be allowed to move first.

Adam,

This summer will see us host the California State Amateur, The California Girls Championship, The Trans-Missippi Two Ball, as well as three Charitable Events. There is even one more event to which I take the most strenous exception and that is the California Seniors Championship. This is not open to the public at large and is a private group of Seniors from all over the State. A large number of members in this group are from the toniest clubs in Southern California but their own clubs never host this boondoggle.

Bob

[Dennis_Harwood]

Dennis,



The last three days of the Tournament were played in ideal conditions. On Sunday we teed off after the finalists and it was like playing in Palm Beach.



The winner, an even younger player had his professional and coach on the bag plus other family members. There was one other blemish on an otherwise perfect day was when Greiner, using a golf cart as he had no caddie, was impeded in his progress in getting to the next tee by the spectators in their own golf carts blocking his way. I think the CGA should issue an edict that the player be allowed to move first.

Bob

Bob-- I am aware of the weather conditions Weds thru Saturday since I did not depart until Fri evening--acting as the Referee in all rounds of matches other than the final.  When the weather is like that, there is no more beautiful spot on the face of the earth (I know you will say that is the fact every day of the year, but being from Newport Beach I am a bit spoiled)-

I am well acquianted with Josh and he is quite a story playing #2 on his high school team (behind Rickey Fowler, who is ranked as either the # 1 or #2 junior in the US and just won and finished highly in two eastern Am events which kept him out of the State)-- Josh is one several high school ams from California who are starting to dominate the amatuer events-- It used to be the college stars, now its the graduating high school set which is starting to make up the quarterfinalists in the State Am. Josh is so fundamentally sound (he missed all last summer's events because of an auto accident) it would not shock me to see him come out of college as the cream of the crop of these remarkable classes of high school grads from the west the last couple of years.

Re the carts, the Conditions of the Competition barred any carts on the course except for contestants and caddies and Rules Officials, however your club begged us to permit your members to bring spectator carts on the course with the assurance that any members using carts on the course would remain on the paths and be unobtrusive.  We try and accommadate the host club, especially when your membership had been as gracious as yours was--however what apparently happened in the final match was exactly why we adopt the "No Spectator Cart" rule.

What we experience in other events, where we bend the rule, is that the club pro staff or other club officer (Pres, Board member, etc) will generally take responsibility for the control of members carts when they are permitted as an exception to the rule and a significant gallery follows a match or pairing. The club "Marshall" will take on the responsiblity to insure that no interference or distraction occurs to the players and control where carts may travel and when they may move--

If we return to MPCC (which I hope is really a "when" rather than an "if"), this is perhaps an issue we will need to clarify with the club as a condition to bending our general condition of competition.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Et. al.,

Aren't green speeds of 13 to 13+ plus with 30 mph winds mutually exclusive ?

I don't believe that balls will remain at rest on greens with any meaningful slope at those speeds. (green & wind)

I can't imagine a ball on a downhill slope, downwind and perhaps down grain remaining stationary in 30 mph winds.

Nor can I imagine the ball stopping on the green once it's struck.

Don't we tend to exagerate green speeds ?

Friday and Saturday I played in winds of 30 mph.

Fortunately, the greens were not at high stimp readings or the course would have been unplayable.

It should be fairly easy to tell at what stimp and wind velocity greens become unsuitable for play.

I would imagine it's below 13 and 30 with golf courses with greens containing any meaningful slope.

[Bob_Huntley]

Dennis,

Thank you, I should have guessed that you foresaw the problem that did indeed occur. All it needed was a stern announcement on the first tee from one of our members. I would willingly have applied for the job.

Did you happen to see Andersons shot after taking his drop from the ditch on number five?  Truly a majestic strike and convinced me he was going to be the likely winner.


Bob

[David Ober]

Et. al.,

Aren't green speeds of 13 to 13+ plus with 30 mph winds mutually exclusive ?

I don't believe that balls will remain at rest on greens with any meaningful slope at those speeds. (green & wind)

I can't imagine a ball on a downhill slope, downwind and perhaps down grain remaining stationary in 30 mph winds.

Nor can I imagine the ball stopping on the green once it's struck.

Don't we tend to exagerate green speeds ?

Friday and Saturday I played in winds of 30 mph.

Fortunately, the greens were not at high stimp readings or the course would have been unplayable.

It should be fairly easy to tell at what stimp and wind velocity greens become unsuitable for play.

I would imagine it's below 13 and 30 with golf courses with greens containing any meaningful slope.

Patrick, I own a stimpmeter. I stimped the practice green on Monday morning at just over 12. It was soaking wet. The greens on the course (especially the Shore) were markedly faster. I personally witnessed two balls that got blown off the green on number 14 Shore.

If that's "exagerating," so be it. You weren't there.

[Matt_Cohn]

Patrick,

Yes we do tend to exaggerate green speeds but not on this occasion. The greens really were 13.5-14, and the winds really were 20-30 mph. I'm not sure how it remained playable - I pondered that question as well - but the short answer is that somehow, it did. Sensible hole locations probably had something to do with it.

The practice green which David Ober stimped at 12+ was noticably slower than the greens on either course.

[Tom Huckaby]

So David/Matt - thoughts on the prospects of playing State Am at Lakeside next year - good/bad/indifferent?  I posted earlier that that course seems like a let down after Pebble and MPCC - most courses would, that's for sure - but it remains odd to me that if it's gonna happen in SoCal, Lakeside is the choice and not Riviera or LACC or BelAir... what do you actual players think?

BTW, when we did course rating at MPCC, "typical summer green speeds" were given to us as 10- 10.5.  That's what the course rating is based on. They sure did diabolically speed things up for you guys.  But it it was a problem, an easy answer would be just leave them at normal speeds next time.

TH