California State Amateur

[Bob_Huntley]

David Ober,

Gauging the wind is difficult without an Anemometer.

Measuring by club lengths doesn't always provide an accurate reading of velocities.

Some winds are heavier/lighter than others.
Moisture content impacts ball flight.
A dry wind will have less of an effect on a ball than a wet wind at the same mph.

A steady wind of 30 mph is significant.
When greens stimp at 13+ it doesn't matter how wet they are, they're stimping at 13+.  If they were dry they'd probably stimp higher.

But, somewhere, there's someone who knows the formula for when a ball begins to move when influenced by stimp, wind and slope.

Perhaps the measurement baseline should be done without slope, just using wind and stimp.  Once you determine what combinations cause the ball to move on a flat surface, you could introduce the third element.

Year's ago, I wrote to the USGA with respect to doing a study on stimp and slope, but, to my knowledge, nothing ever came of it.

What many peope forget is that a putt can stimp at 13 in one direction and 9 in the opposite direction, establishing the overall stimp reading of 11.

Patrick,

Though I'm not a USGA-certified Master StimpReader(TM), I do know how to take a stimp reading. ;-)

On the practice green I rolled three balls on the flatest area I could find. The readings were as follows: ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~ 9 feet, ~9 feet, ~9 feet

I'll leave you to do the math. ;-)

As I said, the practice green was soaking wet in the early morning when I took the readings. The greens on the course were significantly drier and faster than the practice green.

Regarding the moisture on the green affecting the possibility of balls moving, I think you have possibly missed something:
A stimp reading measures how far a ball will travel when it is rolled down a ramp. It has nothing to do with a ball moving from a stationary position.

In other words: You could have two greens, both stimping at 13. On green A, a ball will move from a stationary position when x amount of wind force (or gravity) is applied to it. But on green B it will take x plus y amount of force because green B has more surface moisture.

This seems a reasonable hypothesis to me.

I'm looking forward to calibrating my meter against a real stimpmeter. If it does match up with the real McCoy, then there's no doubt in my mind that the greens on the Shore on Tuesday were at least 13.

Pat,

I played with David in a practice round and asked him to demonstrate the use of a Stimpmeter, which he did. He calculated to perfection.

Bob

[Michael Moore]

At what speeds and at what velocities will a ball become unstable ?

Pat -

As a golf ball approaches the speed of light, its matter will be converted into energy. Speeds of this magnitude unfortunately cannot be measured by a Stimpmeter.

[James Bennett]

I'd like to know the following

At what speeds and what slopes will a ball become unstable ?
At what speeds and at what velocities will a ball become unstable ?
At what slopes and what velocities will a ball become unstable ?

It would seem that knowing the answer to those questions would allow an architect to shape his greens, in a site specific manner, such that he could maximize the use of all three elements to form interesting and challenging greens.

Patrick

I recall some research that was probably referenced from this site which showed the green speeds and slopes at which a ball would 'start moving' through pure gravity.

Is that information of value to you?  If so, I will try and find my copy and the internet reference for it, and let you know.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Though I'm not a USGA-certified Master StimpReader(TM), I do know how to take a stimp reading. ;-)

On the practice green I rolled three balls on the flatest area I could find. The readings were as follows: ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~ 9 feet, ~9 feet, ~9 feet

I'll leave you to do the math. ;-)

The math is easy, the accuracy is dependent upon the reliability of the substitute device you used[/color]

As I said, the practice green was soaking wet in the early morning when I took the readings. The greens on the course were significantly drier and faster than the practice green.

That doesn't necessarily dictate speeds on the golf course.
The practice green could have been mowed differently.
Absent stimp readings ON the golf course it's interpolation at best.  Especially since you've used a makeshift device and not an actual stimp meter.[/color]

Regarding the moisture on the green affecting the possibility of balls moving, I think you have possibly missed something:
A stimp reading measures how far a ball will travel when it is rolled down a ramp. It has nothing to do with a ball moving from a stationary position.

Having had a stimp meter for longer than you've been on this planet,  I"m keenly aware of how and what a stimp meter measures.[/color]

In other words: You could have two greens, both stimping at 13. On green A, a ball will move from a stationary position when x amount of wind force (or gravity) is applied to it. But on green B it will take x plus y amount of force because green B has more surface moisture.

If they both stimp at 13, the amount of friction/adhesion between the ball and the green would be equal, thus causing the wind to affect them equally.  I don't see capillary action as having any influence.

And, at 13 on a stimp, surface moisture would be almost non-existant, and it certainly wouldn't have a substantive influence on the ball.[/color]

This seems a reasonable hypothesis to me.

It's a flawed hypothesis, similar to the one that would claim that a pound of feathers will fall at a slower rate than a pound of gold.[/color]

I'm looking forward to calibrating my meter against a real stimpmeter. If it does match up with the real McCoy, then there's no doubt in my mind that the greens on the Shore on Tuesday were at least 13.

In addition to the dimensions/configuration of the stimp meter or your substitute device, the critical factor is the milling of the notch that holds the ball and the angle of the V in the topside groove.  If the notch is less than perfect, which is not uncommon, all readings would be off.

What's interesting about the stimp meter and its adoption by the USGA is the following.

The USGA NEVER anticipated green speeds in excess of 12 when the stimp meter was introduced.  

And, as recently as 2004 that concept was maintained by the USGA as evidenced by their publications.[/color]

Bob Huntley,

His methodology may have been correct, but, if his implement is flawed, the readings would also be flawed.

James Bennett,

I"m interested in that study and would appreciate anything you could do to produce it.

Thanks.

[James Bennett]

Patrick

I check tonight when I get home.  I remember distributing it at a Course Committe meeting in the last two or three years.

James

[Dennis_Harwood]

Dennis,

It would seem that the most likely venues for the Championship when played in Southern California, would be in the Palm Desert area. Albeit, at a different time of the year.

Apart from LACC what other clubs have two courses and even if they agreed to host the event, is the South course something that would appeal to you?

Bob

Bob-- We are pretty well locked into that time of year --for two reasons--

Longer days, but most important, the collegiate and high school players are not available until their schools break after the first week in June (and up to the US AM which is the date a lot of the graduating college kids use as the date to declare pro--)-- So unless you want this to be a midam event, the mid to late June or early July is when it has to be.

 I can not conceive of this event without the college players. so that rules out the desert (late June and early July will not work in Palm Desert), and in fact makes some of the non-desert inland venues - both NoCal and SoCal - iffy if you want to maintain high green speeds (the last thing we need is having a heat wave on an inland course and destroying their greens as a reward for hosting the State Am).

LACC would clearly work, but I can not think of lot of other venues (there are some resort and pulbic venues--but you then have the problem we faced with Pebble if you are discussing a high profile location like Torrey--money (although Torrey is a future possiblity)-- or a site not worth pursuing given the quality of course(s).

We are working on some combos, but non-36 hole courses do have drawbacks-

[Doug Siebert]

Out of curiousity, for those who know how to properly operate a stimpmeter, how would you go about taking readings on greens that do not have any flat areas?

For instance, a green with a pronounced back to front slope?  If you measure uphill and the ball rolls 6 feet and downhill it rolls 30 feet, you can't average the two and say it stimps at 18, so what do you do?

If you ran it across the slope and it travels 10 feet out and 5 feet down do you call it 10 feet for the distance it travelled in its initial direction, or do you call it the slightly over 11 feet it would be if you measured directly from the end of the stimpmeter to where the ball ended up?

[AndrewB]

Dennis, thanks for the reply regarding the size of the field.  You make good points.  The field on a single course (Poppy Hills) was handled very well last year, so I thought the change to two courses might have brought something between the 156 and 312 field size for the US Amateur.  The first cut last year (to 60) involved a playoff after the second round and I don't remember there being problems getting it in before dark.  I stayed around to make sure I made the cut, then went over to Pebble Beach and had time to practice putting for probably an hour.  Was the pace of play (either allotted or actual) different this year?  I remember the allotted time this year was 4:48 (to answer Mike's question), and the difficult conditions certainly made it take that long if not more.

Bob, I'm not lobbying for a larger field as much as I'm just trying to understand the thought process an organization like the CGA goes through when planning their events.  156 is certainly sufficient to cover both exemptions for those that deserve them and many qualifying opportunities as well.  There are just so many good players here in California that I think you could increase the field size and not decrease the overall quality of golf; I saw the names of several very good players that didn't qualify for this year's event.

[Jim Nugent]

Out of curiousity, for those who know how to properly operate a stimpmeter, how would you go about taking readings on greens that do not have any flat areas?

For instance, a green with a pronounced back to front slope?  If you measure uphill and the ball rolls 6 feet and downhill it rolls 30 feet, you can't average the two and say it stimps at 18, so what do you do?

If you ran it across the slope and it travels 10 feet out and 5 feet down do you call it 10 feet for the distance it travelled in its initial direction, or do you call it the slightly over 11 feet it would be if you measured directly from the end of the stimpmeter to where the ball ended up?

Doug, I've never used the stimpmeter, but I recall someone (TE Paul?) saying you have to skip greens that don't have big enough flat areas.  

My reasoning suggests to me that averaging over contours does not give you valid numbers, i.e. the measurements only work on flat sections.  

[David Ober]

Though I'm not a USGA-certified Master StimpReader(TM), I do know how to take a stimp reading. ;-)

On the practice green I rolled three balls on the flatest area I could find. The readings were as follows: ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~ 9 feet, ~9 feet, ~9 feet

I'll leave you to do the math. ;-)

The math is easy, the accuracy is dependent upon the reliability of the substitute device you used[/color]

As I said, the practice green was soaking wet in the early morning when I took the readings. The greens on the course were significantly drier and faster than the practice green.

That doesn't necessarily dictate speeds on the golf course.
The practice green could have been mowed differently.
Absent stimp readings ON the golf course it's interpolation at best.  Especially since you've used a makeshift device and not an actual stimp meter.[/color]

Regarding the moisture on the green affecting the possibility of balls moving, I think you have possibly missed something:
A stimp reading measures how far a ball will travel when it is rolled down a ramp. It has nothing to do with a ball moving from a stationary position.

Having had a stimp meter for longer than you've been on this planet,  I"m keenly aware of how and what a stimp meter measures.[/color]

In other words: You could have two greens, both stimping at 13. On green A, a ball will move from a stationary position when x amount of wind force (or gravity) is applied to it. But on green B it will take x plus y amount of force because green B has more surface moisture.

If they both stimp at 13, the amount of friction/adhesion between the ball and the green would be equal, thus causing the wind to affect them equally.  I don't see capillary action as having any influence.

And, at 13 on a stimp, surface moisture would be almost non-existant, and it certainly wouldn't have a substantive influence on the ball.[/color]

This seems a reasonable hypothesis to me.

It's a flawed hypothesis, similar to the one that would claim that a pound of feathers will fall at a slower rate than a pound of gold.[/color]

I'm looking forward to calibrating my meter against a real stimpmeter. If it does match up with the real McCoy, then there's no doubt in my mind that the greens on the Shore on Tuesday were at least 13.

In addition to the dimensions/configuration of the stimp meter or your substitute device, the critical factor is the milling of the notch that holds the ball and the angle of the V in the topside groove.  If the notch is less than perfect, which is not uncommon, all readings would be off.

What's interesting about the stimp meter and its adoption by the USGA is the following.

The USGA NEVER anticipated green speeds in excess of 12 when the stimp meter was introduced.  

And, as recently as 2004 that concept was maintained by the USGA as evidenced by their publications.[/color]

Bob Huntley,

His methodology may have been correct, but, if his implement is flawed, the readings would also be flawed.

James Bennett,

I"m interested in that study and would appreciate anything you could do to produce it.

Thanks.

Patrick,

If the readings are consistently the same across greens of varying speeds (or close enough for government work), then the notch becomes meaningless.

Serious question: Are you a credentialed scientist, Patrick?

[David Ober]

David Ober,

Gauging the wind is difficult without an Anemometer.

Measuring by club lengths doesn't always provide an accurate reading of velocities.

Some winds are heavier/lighter than others.
Moisture content impacts ball flight.
A dry wind will have less of an effect on a ball than a wet wind at the same mph.

A steady wind of 30 mph is significant.
When greens stimp at 13+ it doesn't matter how wet they are, they're stimping at 13+.  If they were dry they'd probably stimp higher.

But, somewhere, there's someone who knows the formula for when a ball begins to move when influenced by stimp, wind and slope.

Perhaps the measurement baseline should be done without slope, just using wind and stimp.  Once you determine what combinations cause the ball to move on a flat surface, you could introduce the third element.

Year's ago, I wrote to the USGA with respect to doing a study on stimp and slope, but, to my knowledge, nothing ever came of it.

What many peope forget is that a putt can stimp at 13 in one direction and 9 in the opposite direction, establishing the overall stimp reading of 11.

Patrick,

Though I'm not a USGA-certified Master StimpReader(TM), I do know how to take a stimp reading. ;-)

On the practice green I rolled three balls on the flatest area I could find. The readings were as follows: ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~ 9 feet, ~9 feet, ~9 feet

I'll leave you to do the math. ;-)

As I said, the practice green was soaking wet in the early morning when I took the readings. The greens on the course were significantly drier and faster than the practice green.

Regarding the moisture on the green affecting the possibility of balls moving, I think you have possibly missed something:
A stimp reading measures how far a ball will travel when it is rolled down a ramp. It has nothing to do with a ball moving from a stationary position.

In other words: You could have two greens, both stimping at 13. On green A, a ball will move from a stationary position when x amount of wind force (or gravity) is applied to it. But on green B it will take x plus y amount of force because green B has more surface moisture.

This seems a reasonable hypothesis to me.

I'm looking forward to calibrating my meter against a real stimpmeter. If it does match up with the real McCoy, then there's no doubt in my mind that the greens on the Shore on Tuesday were at least 13.

Pat,

I played with David in a practice round and asked him to demonstrate the use of a Stimpmeter, which he did. He calculated to perfection.

Bob

Bob,

I believe I read somewhere in one of the articles about the Cal Am, that the greenskeeper at MPCC said the greens were rolling at 13. Would you mind chatting him up a bit and finding out if he did, indeed say that.

If so, I would like Mr. Mucci to call him a liar to his face. ;-)

[Bob_Huntley]

Andrew, David and Pat,

I have just gotten off the phone with our Super, Bob Zoller.

He told me that they double cut and rolled the greens of both courses for the Stroke play portion  of the tourney and the first rounds of Match Play. He reiterated that the Shore Course stimped at over 13 as did the Dunes, but on the latter it was measured only on those holes with with a reasonably flat hole location.

In the latter, benign days of the event, he stopped double cutting as the sun was baking out the greens and they would have become unplayable.

The Northern California Golf Association is collecting the data on scoring averages on each hole and will be presenting the results to the club at a later date. Should be interesting.

Bob

[David Ober]

Andrew, David and Pat,

I have just gotten off the phone with our Super, Bob Zoller.

He told me that they double cut and rolled the greens of both courses for the Stroke play portion  of the tourney and the first rounds of Match Play. He reiterated that the Shore Course stimped at over 13 as did the Dunes, but on the latter it was measured only on those holes with with a reasonably flat hole location.

In the latter, benign days of the event, he stopped double cutting as the sun was baking out the greens and they would have become unplayable.

The Northern California Golf Association is collecting the data on scoring averages on each hole and will be presenting the results to the club at a later date. Should be interesting.

Bob

Thank you very much indeed, Bob.

Mr. Mucci, that's enough evidence for me: I consider the case of The People vs. Patrick Mucci in re Greenspeed at the 2007 Cal Am at MPCC Country Club to be closed. ;-)

However, I'm sure you will go on doubting.... :-)

[Dennis_Harwood]

Bob, I'm not lobbying for a larger field as much as I'm just trying to understand the thought process an organization like the CGA goes through when planning their events.  156 is certainly sufficient to cover both exemptions for those that deserve them and many qualifying opportunities as well.  There are just so many good players here in California that I think you could increase the field size and not decrease the overall quality of golf; I saw the names of several very good players that didn't qualify for this year's event.

Andrew-- To give you some insight on the thought process-- If you set 15 mins a hole as pace of play limits (subject to penalty if you exceed it) and play in threesomes with a "cross-over" (starting on both 9s), 156 is the max for a single round-- If you have more than that then you have 2 waves (an AM and a PM field)--

Some of the problems a double wave creates-

1- even though its the longest days of the year, SoCal still has less daylight time than the north-by about 20 mins a day-

2- Many Metro Clubs in the LA/SD area which are surrounded by homes have noise abatement laws in effect which prohibit green mowing before 7am--Hence a 7:30 time is about the earliest you can plan to start if you are going to mow greens-

3- When we went two waves at Poppy we started at 6:30 am--that facility is staffed for tournament play and early starts and late finishes--That is not possible at many clubs if you wish to prepare the course, and in SoCal such a time is still cutting it close (I had the US Open Sectional at Bear Creek with a field of 79 --36 holes -- and we finished in the dark less than a month ago)-

3- Clubs don't like two days of overtime staff--requiring staff to get there early for carts and keeping the locker rooms and cart staff there until the competition is completed for a full field-- Most clubs would prefer not to see 36 two days in a row--

4- If we get delays (fog is not unheard of any where in Calif in June), then you are toast to even finish, much less handle a playoff.

If you are using two courses, especially at different venues, and attempting 36 holes of play on each, then you are compounding the difficulties.

[JohnV]

Dennis,

I was just looking at the California Am website and according to the pairings for stroke play everyone was sent off #1.  No chance of doing a 1 & 10 start on both courses?

You said you couldn't do the playoff on Wednesday because you were locked into tee times for Wednesday AM.  Even with that, there are ways to make sure that the players who would be in a playoff get the last tee times.

We do that every year at the US Mid-Am where we always have the playoff first thing on Monday morning.  Looking at the website, it appears there were 5 spots available in the playoff.  Just give the top 5 qualifiers get the last tee times, by then the playoff will be over and there is no problem.  Since you only had one round the first day of Match Play no other issues should arise.

The US Mid-Am is held in September or October with 264 players on two courses and with the rare exception of very severe weather, we get the two rounds in by the end of the second day and have the playoff the next morning.  We have a lot less daylight then than you would have in June, even in So Cal so I would think you could get more players in the field and still make it work.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV:

I'm trying to follow all of this because I am genuinely curious... so you did take note that Dennis and the CGA don't want to hold playoffs over until the 3rd morning, correct?  A unique thing about our State Am is that the way it's set up, half the field comes from NorCal qualifiers, have from SoCal.  So at least half the field is far from home each year.  I guess it's not a huge big deal in the scheme of things as very few are liable to be effected... but asking some to stay overnight for a playoff just doesn't seem to be a cool thing to do.  For a national event it might be thought of differently.

So... I don't get how this part is handled in your recommendation.  Maybe I missed it.

Why does this matter?  Well, my curiousity remains as to the feasibility of holding the event on a single course.  Sure seems to me two different courses works a whole lot better.

But then you get into other problems, as Dennis has highlighted....

TH

[Dennis_Harwood]

Dennis,

I was just looking at the California Am website and according to the pairings for stroke play everyone was sent off #1.  No chance of doing a 1 & 10 start on both courses?

John-- If that is what the website infered, it was wrong-  We started on both 9s, both courses, both days for the Mon - Tues qualifying with a 2 1/2 hour crossover.

Also we did have some time pressure on Weds-- Despite 36 holes at MPCC, our arrangement with the club was that we would clear the first tee on Weds by noon for member play(except for permitting extra hole matches to proceed back to the first tee)--

 Even with a private club like MPCC with 36 holes, after permitting practice rounds and blocking both courses for two days, the membership gets a bit antsy to start playing and expects access to the club on the third day--

That pressure is even greater if a single course is involved (major reason we reduce match play to 32 --- If it was 64 then members would effectively lose the course for at least 4 days + practice rounds--2 days of qualifying+32 matches on Weds+16AM and 8PM matches on Thurs)--few clubs are willing to raise their hands on that one-

[Mike Benham]

So Dennis, if I can summarize from your responses, you guys know what you are doing !

[AndrewB]

Dennis, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply.  It shows just how much goes in to planning an event such as this and all of us players should be more grateful than we are that there are folks like you (and John) who enjoy running these events.

I have just one comment for now since I'm short on time ...

John-- If that is what the website infered, it was wrong-  We started on both 9s, both courses, both days for the Mon - Tues qualifying with a 2 1/2 hour crossover.

This is actually incorrect.  We all teed off on the first hole of the course we were playing (Shore or Dunes).  I believe tee times started at 7:30 and I had the second to last tee time on the Monday at 11:30 on the Dunes course (so tee times ran from 7:30 to 11:40, every 10 minutes, with three players in each group).  There was a "half flip" of the tee times (the second half of the times became the first half of the times, but maintain their order within that half) for the second round onto the other course, but we still went off the first hole.  The 10th holes are quite a distance from the clubhouse, so going off both nines would have been a bit difficult.

Last year at Poppy Hills they definitely went off both sides and had two waves.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

If the readings are consistently the same across greens of varying speeds (or close enough for government work), then the notch becomes meaningless.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The construction of the notch is such that it's calibrated to release the ball at precisely the same time/angle no matter where the golfer is.  Usually it's at about a 20 degree angle.

The reason that this is important is two fold.
1  consistency
2  The inclined plane will be at the same angle and the ball will
    be released at a precise launch angle, thus, the ball will
    attain uniform/universal speed as it rolls down the precisely
    measured ramp onto the green.

An early or late release point, vis a vis a misconstructed, mislocated or damaged notch on the stimp meter will provide inaccurate readings.[/color]  

Serious question: Are you a credentialed scientist, Patrick?

I majored in chemical engineering when I entered college.
Math and the sciences were always enjoyable.
Then I began to lean toward law and business.
And now, now I'm just TEPaul's legal guardian, and nothing in college prepared me for that task.   I'm about to have my fees tripled, but, I still don't think that's enough.[/color]

I'm off to NY, I'll be BACH

[David Ober]

Patrick,

If the readings are consistently the same across greens of varying speeds (or close enough for government work), then the notch becomes meaningless.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The construction of the notch is such that it's calibrated to release the ball at precisely the same time/angle no matter where the golfer is.  Usually it's at about a 20 degree angle.

The reason that this is important is two fold.
1  consistency
2  The inclined plane will be at the same angle and the ball will
    be released at a precise launch angle, thus, the ball will
    attain uniform/universal speed as it rolls down the precisely
    measured ramp onto the green.

An early or late release point, vis a vis a misconstructed, mislocated or damaged notch on the stimp meter will provide inaccurate readings.[/color]  

Serious question: Are you a credentialed scientist, Patrick?

I majored in chemical engineering when I entered college.
Math and the sciences were always enjoyable.
Then I began to lean toward law and business.
And now, now I'm just TEPaul's legal guardian, and nothing in college prepared me for that task.   I'm about to have my fees tripled, but, I still don't think that's enough.[/color]

I'm off to NY, I'll be BACH

Patrick,

So let me see if I get this straight:

Are you telling me that if I devised a green speed measuring device that contained no notch (or a different kind of notch) that consistently delivered identical results to a USGA stimpmeter that you would reject its results because it didn't have the same notch configuration as a USGA stimpmeter?

More importantly, though, I'm interested in your response to Mr. Huntley's post about his conversation with the super at MPCC....

David

[Dennis_Harwood]

Dennis,

I was just looking at the California Am website and according to the pairings for stroke play everyone was sent off #1.  No chance of doing a 1 & 10 start on both courses?

John-- If that is what the website infered, it was wrong-  We started on both 9s, both courses, both days for the Mon - Tues qualifying with a 2 1/2 hour crossover.

Also we did have some time pressure on Weds-- Despite 36 holes at MPCC, our arrangement with the club was that we would clear the first tee on Weds by noon for member play(except for permitting extra hole matches to proceed back to the first tee)--

 Even with a private club like MPCC with 36 holes, after permitting practice rounds and blocking both courses for two days, the membership gets a bit antsy to start playing and expects access to the club on the third day--

That pressure is even greater if a single course is involved (major reason we reduce match play to 32 --- If it was 64 then members would effectively lose the course for at least 4 days + practice rounds--2 days of qualifying+32 matches on Weds+16AM and 8PM matches on Thurs)--few clubs are willing to raise their hands on that one-

Brain Dead Poster- Too many events, I guess (Hey, that was a over a week ago--can't expect me to recall that far back, can you?)-- I worked three events with crossovers this month and have the cross over pairings for the SCGA tomorrow and blanked out that we started all from #1 on both courses at the State--

There was a reason we did not use #10 for starts however.  If you are aware of course routing you know #10 on both courses are a long ways from the club house-- We wanted to encourage players to walk (to cut down on cart traffic in the native roughs on MPCC), and shuttling to #10 and back from #9 was not deemed a good plan--

SO, excuse me for the misinformation, but the crossover is used whenever course set up permits it, and it would not have solved the problem to permit a larger field.

[JohnV]

JV:

I'm trying to follow all of this because I am genuinely curious... so you did take note that Dennis and the CGA don't want to hold playoffs over until the 3rd morning, correct?  A unique thing about our State Am is that the way it's set up, half the field comes from NorCal qualifiers, have from SoCal.  So at least half the field is far from home each year.  I guess it's not a huge big deal in the scheme of things as very few are liable to be effected... but asking some to stay overnight for a playoff just doesn't seem to be a cool thing to do.  For a national event it might be thought of differently.

The only time I saw a player go home rather than be in a playoff was at Dallas in 1997 when it was supposed to be 17 players for 1 spot.  We ended up with 15.

If you are planning on being there for the week (if you aren't, why are you playing), why should another night matter.  Do you think the guy who sat there until 5 or 6 waiting to find out if he was in really wants to drive back to LA that night?

Dennis,

Regarding the tight tee times on Wednesday, it seems like a playoff in the morning shouldn't make a difference in that, it never has at the Mid-Am.  Start the playoff on some hole out on the course (or #1 off the other course) while the first matches go out.  Highly unlikely that you wouldn't be done long before the last few matches were scheduled.

[Tom Huckaby]

JV - very perfect and logical points - many thanks.  Methinks waiting until the next day for a playoff is a non-issue after all.

TH

[AndrewB]

There was a reason we did not use #10 for starts however.  If you are aware of course routing you know #10 on both courses are a long ways from the club house-- We wanted to encourage players to walk (to cut down on cart traffic in the native roughs on MPCC), and shuttling to #10 and back from #9 was not deemed a good plan--

Thanks for the clarification and further explanation.  One more question, what factors are taken into consideration for the decision to encourage players to walk rather than just requiring walking?  I had heard last year that the CGA was worried about lawsuits, but can't you just allow carts for those that present medical reasons to get around that?  Again, just curious (though I greatly prefer carts to be disallowed for a number of reasons).