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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
What do you design?
« on: February 13, 2002, 12:54:44 PM »
I’m on the Board of an organization called Embrace Your Dreams (EYD) that works with socially disadvantaged and at risk kids in the Lehigh Valley.  We’ll developed programs to teach these kids tennis as well as give them a physical fitness and character building experience with mentor support.  We are now looking to expand our programs into golf and are working with among other organizations, The First Tee.  There is a very good chance that EYD and myself will be involved with the design and construction a nine hole facility to support our program.  The First Tee as some of you may know, offers help with this process, but to keep costs down (all our money comes from donations), we will do much of the design work, etc. ourselves.  We hope to construct the course on land next to an existing 18 hole facility that is owned by a very good friend of mine.  In fact, he is the head of our Board and it was his vision that EYD was formed in the first place.  

So my real life question is – You have 60 or so acres to build a nine-hole course and very limited funds.  It could ultimately be used part of the time by the public, but it’s principle purpose will be as a place to play the game of golf for these kids!  Remember, probably the only thing these kids know about golf is Tiger Woods!  What do you design?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2002, 01:14:31 PM »
If I may be so bold to suggest the emphasis be on a quality practice facility and if there is room left over for a few quality holes, build them. Don't be so confined to the morays of a nine holer. The truth is if the facility is REALLY for those kids they belong on the range, first! Then if you have as few as three holes, perhaps everyone would come. That is if you build it.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2002, 01:24:37 PM »
I'll have to disagree with my good friend Adam.  Build the 9-holer, as simply as possible.  If it's a flat piece of property, keep it flat.  If it's got humps and bumps, keep them.  Minimal practice facilities--maybe a few nets, a chipping area and a putting green.  Give the kids a shot at helping build AND maintain the course.  Site clearing, trash pick up, light mowing, bunkers buidling and raking, etc.  Make them feel that they own it.  Given them credit against rounds played for work they do.

Great idea, Mark.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2002, 01:56:52 PM »
Keep the ideas coming guys.  They are appreciated.  I like the idea of using the kids with the maintenance, etc.  That is fantastic.  I should have thought of that myself as I just played Glen Mills and the super their was telling me he has 75 (troubled youths) working with him on the golf course.  

The three hole course is an option as well and we may start out with something like that!  Nine holes is the ultimate goal but much will come down to money!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2002, 02:06:54 PM »
Hey, I actually get to agree with Rich!

Nothing builds a love of the game like playing it - starting on the range will probably turn more kids off. If you need to put in a small range, so be it, but let 'em play!

How about contacting some young up & comer who might be willing to work for peanuts? Maybe contact some students at Penn State's agricultural program? You might be able to skimp on design(though we all know what the Good Doctor would have to say about that), but you better not skimp on construction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2002, 02:13:02 PM »
My $.02:  having the kids help out in exchange for free golf is a GREAT idea, but I question the wisdom of having little or no practice area, as Rich suggests.  I think I follow the logic - have them learn to play on the course - but this leads to more failure than success and would turn many kids off the game, don't you think?  I'd worry about the kids coming back very often if they didn't have a place to really learn how to play...

I'd say give them a small range at the very least - nothing turns a kid "on" to golf like finally giving the ball a good smack, and that takes a LOT of tries, far more than they'd be able to get playing 9 holes of golf with other people trying to play also.

Start with a 3 hole course, or build as many holes as you can, leaving such holes mostly "as is" as Rich says.  But DO include a practice area, even if it means fosaking land for a hole or two.

Interesting, we have here in San Jose a great facility called "Pin High Golf" that has a large range with grass and mat tee areas, putting green, chipping area, all surrounded by 3 fairly basic golf holes... Pretty damn good place for kids to learn - smack the ball, test it out in the 3 holes afterward when you get some proficiency.  $5 for 3 holes (hey, this is CA, and that's pretty reasonable for us).  15 mins to play the 3.  Yeah, I go there often myself.

Of course in a perfect world, the course would be ours and ours alone, and thus learning "on course" might work... I just don't see that being realistic - you are gonna have other people trying to play and move along, thus the need for the range.

Whew, was that a ramble.   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2002, 02:22:50 PM »
Uh oh, I seem to be taking on the heavyweights here.  I'm likely gonna really regret this one... but...

I continue to disagree.  Letting kids play is cool, but letting them play without any concept of how to hit the ball will lead to them very quickly giving it up.  Picture whiff, whiff, whiff... dribble... buddies behind waiting... laughing... ridicule...

I suppose if we assume a certain basic level of proficiency, this makes sense.  But I thought this was gonna be a facility where kids come and learn to play the game... and for that, you need a venue allowing some sort of repetition.  I just don't see that happening on the course... not straight from the very beginning, as these kids will be.

I'd still advocate having at least some sort of range, allowing repetition and just plain belting the ball.  Basic course attached for when they have gained some proficiency.  Leaving out the range... what is the positive of that?  More room for golf holes?  Heck, chop one par 4 down to a 3 and you have all the room you need....

I am open to convincing... given the heavyweights advocating this, I'm sure I am missing something!   ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2002, 02:28:13 PM »
Mark,

Neal Meagher and I are working on a similar project right now and I would be happy to  run a few ideas by you. Shoot me your e-mail with a phone number and I'll give you a call.


-Gib
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2002, 02:38:39 PM »
Well, that just makes me roast.

I wrote a long, extraordinarily persuasive  :P case for a practice facility. Finished it, posted it -- and was told that I needed to fill in my name. Turns out that I've been logged off the site while I wrote -- and what I wrote, when I hit my Back button, was gone.

Major bummer. I'll try to re-create it later.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2002, 02:39:36 PM »
Mark,
I had the pleasure of learning to play the game as a young kid. I thought the creative drills and competitions we enjoyed on the range, chipping area, and practice green were alot of fun for us and the time spent practicing under the eyes of pga pros was invaluable. I'm in for the practice / play combo. You can't learn the way to play the game without a place to teach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2002, 02:42:11 PM »
Yeah, sure, Dan....

Don't worry about it.  Practice is for geezers, not for people in the flower of their youth.  As I say to my little petals--GRIP IT AND RIP IT!!! or there's no ice cream after dinner and Daddy won't read you "Power Golf" at bedtime!

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2002, 02:51:54 PM »
Rich, I'm with ya man - "practice" is indeed for geezers.

However, LEARNING TO HIT THE BALL is what kids need, first and foremost.  I just don't see how that's gonna happen on-course.  Not enough repetition, as I say.  Then once they have that at least a little, heck yeah, play away.  But first things first.

But then again, I realize I am fighting a losing battle here vis a vis our examples with our daughters!  Of course, if Sarah had the beauty and solititude of an empty Dornoch Struie as her classroom, methinks she might enjoy the game and learn it just fine.

Me also thinks that's NOT the example here...

So I say give them a range.  Still waiting for the downside to doing so, btw.

But alas, I shall have to wait till the morn for this wisdom, as I-880 and said daughter await!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2002, 02:59:55 PM »
 Great idea!  Six holer with an extra three hole practice range with shared times may be possible.   I'm involved as a volunteer on a similar project but is on "Superfund" meaning "hazardous soil" and letting kids help work the turf is not wise.  
  Do you have an aerial of the land to be used?  www.Terraserver.com is a good tool for that.  

 Best of luck and please keep us updated.    

  NorbyNeato@aol.com  (For expounding)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2002, 03:18:37 PM »
I am with Rich on this one.  When was the last time a kid said "remember that shot I hit at the 150 yard marker"?

I think that a practice facility is great, however IMHO nothing turns of kids like practice.  It is the same reason I think you should let kids hit woods, to build confidence.  Kids figure out how to hit the ball after they miss it and if their friends make fun of them that is part of the fun of golf.

Basic lessons are indeed necessary, but unless you are trying to breed Tiger's let them play and get a sense of it before you start fine tuning.

This sounds like such a great project, good luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2002, 03:55:33 PM »
If you have 60 acres, you should have plenty of acreage for a practice range, which can be built on 10 acres or less.

As suggested by shivas, 3 holes could be designed and set-up to be used as a practice range.  The other things you would need is a putting green and short game area.  Design that green area to be as wild and fun as you can.

You'll probably be left with 45 acres on which to build holes.  They shouldn't be too long (300 yards max), and could be as short as 50 yards.  Build however number you can.  You should be able to fit 6 in, with the range trio completing the nine, but don't get stuck with forcing nine holes in there.  Built whatever feels comfortable.

Depending on you funds, greens might even be a waste of money.  They are costly and very demanding to maintain.

The 45  acres could be designed as a flexible "multi-golf" area, bunkers and anything else to make shots interesting thrown in around.  Maybe even an old car as a hazard or target...   :)For example, rather than putting a conventional hole in a conventional green, the target could be a tire laid on the ground.  Chip it in to hole out.

I played golf for 3 years on such a home-made "course" when I started playing this game.  The bunkers where areas of long grass.  The hole was a log stood on end.  The green was a lawn mowed a little shorter.  I named it "Glenn Abbey" (get it?).  The construction cost was the gas in the lawn-mower and the sweat off my brow.

To make a long story short, don't feel restrained by "conventional" golf courses.  The point is to get the kids to have fun, hitting from A to B., learning the game and getting bitten by the bug.

You don't need USGA rootzone mix to do that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2002, 04:35:49 PM »
Lots of good ideas above.  Put me down in the camp that advocates for a very good range with big practice green and short game area.  Then a 3 hole course with a par 3-4-5 that have multiple tees and angles so that one can go around a couple of times and not have the same exact holes depending on tees used, and even some design that could cross over and play to one of the other greens and change the par.  

I would definitely project what kind of money your organization can sustain in fees, food and bev., to determine what you can afford to spend on maintenance and mowers, etc.  Once you know that, there are any number of archies that could do a fine job of designing a multi-functional design (i.e. Jeremy). ;D  Hopefully you have an efficient size-shape property to be creative.

I would check the job market for a super that is thinking of retiring or cutting back, and one that may incidentally have a teaching certification in secondary or vocational ed.  You might be able to find someone that would jump at the chance to combine turf experience with a suppressed dream to teach at a facility like Malvern Boys school.  I have thought of that approach myself when brainstorming operations at my dream facility (as Tom Paul may remember a previous conversation)  By all means check the turf school at Penn State or other ag/vocational tech schools for cooperative programs they could get involved with.  Also, small engine mechanics, and DECA work study are possibilities.

I suspect there are labor laws that you would have to get some sort of accredation for a vocational, rehabilitation facility that Malvern school might clue you in about.  Don't forget ChiChi Rodriquez's youth foundation as another comparative operation to go visit in Tampa.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JayC

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2002, 04:50:46 PM »
A couple ideas:
1.  It might be hard to sell the public players, and you'll need them, on anything less than 9-holes.
2. 60 acres should be enough space.
3. Safety is paramount, with plenty of room between holes to allow for wayward shots. Also recommended would be a routing that allows easy visual monitoring of the kids.
4. A free-standing range would be crucial to developing an effective teaching program.
5. A large practice green (8,000+) helps as it will probably see lots of traffic. A safe distance from the clubhouse is also recommended.  It saves on broken glass. Practice bunker also located for safety.
ps: One of the assignments I used to give the kids was to design their own golf hole.  It was very revealing from a teaching standpoint and led to all kinds of discussion about the key elements of a course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2002, 07:00:56 PM »
This could be the best post I've ever made  :)  It sure is a very beneficial one for me.  Great ideas everyone, thank you!  When I get back to the office I have to print this all out as there are some great ideas here that will help us with our plans.   Don't have time right now to answer everyone's specific questions but I'll try to get to them in the next day or so.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2002, 07:18:15 PM »
Mark,
Are you a golf course designer? If your not, you might see if you can get a professional to donate some time to help you. It can be your group's concept, but a professional could probably save you a lot of time and $$$.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2002, 07:58:39 PM »
If you're going to have 6-9 holes and are struggling for space, I'd have as many par 3's as possible.  I know that when I learnt the game as an 8 year-old, I enjoyed the short holes the most becuase if I hit a reasonable shot I was on the green and could put for birdie.  Nothing beats making a birdie or par when you're learning.

What I'd suggest as far as distances go:
Par 3 70-160yds
Par 4 220-350yds
Par 5 350yds-

Whatever you do, make it challenging in one sense, but simple in another (risk/reward concept), so it will hold the kids interest as they improve.  You'd want the holes to have lots of variety.  How about multiple tees on the par 3's so they can approach the green from a different angle?  Its been discussed here before I think.

Good luck with the project: I wish there was a facility like this when I was growing up!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2002, 08:18:11 PM »
Mark

The more I read this thread, the more I beleive that if this DG applied even just a fraction of our considerable talents and energy towards creating opportunities to play golf for our children as we do for trying to "save the whales" of classic architecture, this golf world we live in and aspire to would be a very much better place.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2002, 08:29:54 PM »
Mark --

I'll try again. (This shouldn't take 350 minutes to write.)

As I was saying, before I was so rudely deleted...

As the father of a 10-year-old girl who is intensely interested in golf, and who has considerable talent -- but whose father is blessed neither with enough money to pay for all the balls she'd hit if I’d let her (a couple buckets a day, at $5-$6 per, all summer long ... and, of course, I'd have to hit a few, too, just to keep her company  ;D), nor with a dues-paying membership in a golf club (with unlimited range privileges), I recommend that you build a top-notch practice facility -- along with as many holes, or as few, as the land will allow after you've built the practice ground.

If that's only three or four holes (with multiple tees, as someone above recommended), I think that's just fine -- if teaching kids to play is really the primary object of the facility.
Three or four holes is all that many kids really want to play, anyway, until they're ready for a bigger course. And if they want more? In the words of Ernie Banks: Let's play two! Or three! Or more!

I'd hope that this facility would be open to any kids who need a place to practice and to play, not just to poor and "at-risk" kids. (NOTE: If you build it the way I recommend, it'd attract a substantial  adult patronage, too. Perhaps you could run it exclusively for kids till, say, 4 in the afternoon, then open it to adults, too. I know I'd be there, regularly, if there were a place like this in my area.) I'd be sure to offer season-long passes.

OBJECT: Let kids hit ALL the shots -- and lots of 'em. As Tom IV says, that's what they need, and they're not going to get enough of it unless their parents belong to the local CC (which these kids’ parents won’t).

Here's what I'd include in your practice area:

-- Driving range. Grass as much as possible, of course, but also mats for the wet days and the spring. Make sure they're those mats with the springy give, so that kids can learn to hit
down through the ball and take a "divot"; not those mats on concrete that teach you how to pick the ball with your irons . . . and how to develop a shank, lest you hurt your wrists by hitting down on the ball.

-- Well-defined greens on the driving range. Several of them: at, say, 100, 125, 150, 175 yards. I agree with what somebody said earlier: It’s not much of a thrill to hit to the 150-yard sign. But it can be a thrill to hit to a 150-yard green -- to see it hit and stop (or bounce up, run, and stop).. Make the greens the size of small, actual greens -- not those “greens” on the typical driving range that are about the size of a dining-room table. Put some hazards beside those greens: a bunker to one side, a shallow concrete-lined “pond” on the other. Let kids teach themselves how to avoid the hazards, in various winds, with variously shaped shots.

-- A BIG putting green. Some of it flat; some of it canted; some of it undulating. Real holes all over the joint (not just those crappy push-pin deals). Keep it fast. Let kids learn
uphill, downhill, sidehill, long, short putts.

-- A chipping/pitching green, big enough to simulate a real green. Build some mounds around it, and let the grass grow on some and cut it short on others. Leave a close-mown chipping area. Let the kids learn to hit from uphill lies, downhill lies, to close and faraway holes.

---------------------- Sponsor lots of putting and chipping contests -- short-game match-play tournaments and the like. Give away ice-cream cones as prizes, or something.

-- A few practice bunkers.

-- Most important of all, I think (perhaps beyond your budget, but perhaps not -- particularly if you can recruit some volunteer help ... from supporters of your program; from the local high-school golf team; from local golf clubs?): I would make sure that, during the Kids’ Hours, there would be one or more instructors who would wander around and offer free
assistance.
     I’ve spent a fair number of hours at driving ranges and putting greens, and here’s what I’ve seen (95 percent of the time): men, women and (most painfully) children in the
process of grooving horrible swings ... while the teaching pros sit up in the pro shop waiting for someone to pay for their guidance. (I’m not dissing the teaching pros. They have a livelihood to make, and they don’t make it by giving away their services.) But the fact remains: Most of the people at driving ranges and putting greens are learning nothing
except bad habits, and there's no one there to help them do anything else.
     There must have been a thousand times when I have just been ITCHING to walk over to someone and say: “Would you care for a little tip? Want to know WHY every shot you
hit is going straight right?” I know that I (an adequate player; far from professional) could help a great many of the people I see hitting balls, chipping and putting -- but I have no
standing, and I don’t feel like risking any hard feelings by accosting them. So, unless I get a clear signal of eagerness for help, I keep my mouth shut.
    I wish I had a little badge that said: “Ask me for help. That’s why I’m here.”

Hope this gives you some ideas. Please keep us informed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Slag_Bandoon

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2002, 08:32:00 PM »
 Yep. It's more important to cultivate and water the seeds and saplings than it is to water the old oak tree.  IMHO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek_L

Re: What do you design?
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2002, 09:04:28 PM »
Mark,

Here is something to ponder when considering the design.  While waiting for my chance to get a break at designing a golf course I love to look at existing golf courses and wonder about the design process.  One day while driving with my wife, I came upon a nine hole course geared toward begginers and youngsters.  I said to my wife, "How fun would it be to design such a simple course".  She replied back that no matter how simple a course is, if there is not any excitement for the children that play the game of golf, their ideas of golf will evolve into those of bordom and dislike for the game.  In other words, keep it short and sweet but also make a creative design that breaks the monotony of every day life.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What do you design?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2002, 02:02:44 PM »
Love the ideas.  Chicago District Golf Association Foundation is building a similar facility at our headquarters at Cog Hill.  Geared to kids, the handicapped and underprivleged.  Also will do some turfgrass research.  If any of this would be helpful I'm sure CDGA would be responsive.  Contact Tod Alfred at CDGA.  It has its own website. A caveat; I have not spent much time with the course design (3 holes).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »