Makings of a great routing

[Jordan Wall]

I was just thinking about routing, and what makes a golf course routing as good, or superb, as opposed to average or mediocre.

Readings Ran's review of Oakmont I noticed how he mentioned how it was truly special that Fownes brought the ninth hole back to the clubhouse, instead of turning and following the (highway?) that goes through the middle of the course.  I also seem to think that Oakmont has a very good flow, something that I think a good routing needs.


So, some random thoughts, I suppose, of what I feel makes a good routing.  

- A good flow to the course.  For instance, I dont like courses where one nine is a lot different than the other nine, or where there are a couple holes that are say 'links-like', where as other holes run through trees.
- Being able to see features of upcoming holes throughout the course.  I think Pat Mucci began a thread on this a while ago, and I agree with him that this is a key component to a good routing.  I think the player who pays attention by looking ahead at what the architect has presented deserves to gain an advantage by determing where pins are, the correct places to miss, things like that.
- Good use of elevation.  I think this is very important, especially on sites where there is a lot of elevation.  A good use of elevation can make holes great, in my opinion.  It can add variety to a course by mixing between uphill and downhill holes and can create interesting fairway and green slopes, both of which can be important in terms of dictating strategy of specific holes.
- A good variety holes.  Simply put, it's a bummer when you leave a course and either can only remember one hole due to the others being mundane, or when you leave the eighteenth green and wonder 'haven't I played this hole already'.


What are other key components of great routings?
What are good examples of courses with superb routings?
Is Oakmont a supreme example of how to route a golf course?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jordan,
I have never routed a course before, other then watching/aiding/suggesting Forrest one time with some preliminary, alternate/post routing ideas he had for Las Palomas. While Forrest has written a book on routing golf courses, with some excellent suggestions, tips and pointers; as well as hi-lighting certain properties and their routings such as Cypress Point, routing is a subject we don't touch on nearly enough on Golf Club Atlas.

I myself have a few ideas on routing that differ from many that do it today. Here are a few of them:

1) The obvious picturesque aspect of the routing itself; taking advantage of all of the opportunities that present themselves.
2) How the elements affect the specific routing itself; for example: wind, elevation, deception, uphill, downhill, sidehill, GRAVITY, etc.; quirky natural features, coves, knolls, hillocks, etc.
3) The shot opportunities that can be found on any given piece of ground and how to properly expose them for every aspect of play.

Some good courses which to study routing are:

Riviera
Pasatiempo
The Valley Club of Montecito
Friar's Head
Stone Eagle
Rustic Canyon
Talking Stick


AND........

Sandpines--Golf On The Oregon Dunes

(As in how to screw up an above normal, difficult piece of property that had all of the opportunities to be world class)

[Geoffrey Childs]

I was just thinking about routing, and what makes a golf course routing as good, or superb, as opposed to average or mediocre.

So, some random thoughts, I suppose, of what I feel makes a good routing.  

- A good flow to the course.  For instance, I dont like courses where one nine is a lot different than the other nine, or where there are a couple holes that are say 'links-like', where as other holes run through trees.
- Being able to see features of upcoming holes throughout the course.  

Let's see here Jordan.

I suppose you don't like Pacific Dunes as the front and back nines are quite different in composition.

I suppose you don't like Cypress Point or Friars Head as they both meander through treed areas into dunes and back again.

I suppose you would not like Pine Valley as a routing either as each hole is quite secluded without much in terms of views of other holes or features.

We amateurs should sit back and learn from the pros on board here about routing.  It's tough to make generalizations or to put a formula to golf course architecture.

[Ryan Farrow]

Jordan,
I have never routed a course before, other then watching/aiding/suggesting Forrest one time with some preliminary, alternate/post routing ideas he had for Las Palomas. While Forrest has written a book on routing golf courses, with some excellent suggestions, tips and pointers; as well as hi-lighting certain properties and their routings such as Cypress Point, routing is a subject we don't touch on nearly enough on Golf Club Atlas.

I myself have a few ideas on routing that differ from many that do it today. Here are a few of them:

1) The obvious picturesque aspect of the routing itself; taking advantage of all of the opportunities that present themselves.
2) How the elements affect the specific routing itself; for example: wind, elevation, deception, uphill, downhill, sidehill, GRAVITY, etc.; quirky natural features, coves, knolls, hillocks, etc.
3) The shot opportunities that can be found on any given piece of ground and how to properly expose them for every aspect of play.

Some good courses which to study routing are:

Riviera
Pasatiempo
The Valley Club of Montecito
Friar's Head
Stone Eagle
Rustic Canyon
Talking Stick


AND........

Sandpines--Golf On The Oregon Dunes

(As in how to screw up an above normal, difficult piece of property that had all of the opportunities to be world class)

Although I will agree with 3 of those that i played I find your last entry a bit odd. What is so great about the routing at talking stick? Remember when somone used to ride their bike through that very flat, featureless terrain.

and, call me sometime or respond to your PM's if you have some time.

[Jordan Wall]

I was just thinking about routing, and what makes a golf course routing as good, or superb, as opposed to average or mediocre.

So, some random thoughts, I suppose, of what I feel makes a good routing.  

- A good flow to the course.  For instance, I dont like courses where one nine is a lot different than the other nine, or where there are a couple holes that are say 'links-like', where as other holes run through trees.
- Being able to see features of upcoming holes throughout the course.  

Let's see here Jordan.

I suppose you don't like Pacific Dunes as the front and back nines are quite different in composition.

I suppose you don't like Cypress Point or Friars Head as they both meander through treed areas into dunes and back again.

I suppose you would not like Pine Valley as a routing either as each hole is quite secluded without much in terms of views of other holes or features.

We amateurs should sit back and learn from the pros on board here about routing.  It's tough to make generalizations or to put a formula to golf course architecture.

Geoffrey,

Is it not true that Pine Valley and Cypress Point have excellent flow in their routings?
At least that is what I have heard.

I was more shooting for the architects that build certain type holes on property where they shouldnt be (links type holes on a tree lined property, for instance).  In the case of Cypress Point and Pine Valley, from my understanding the features the courses use were natural and thus not built or manufactured.  


And, my whole point in this thread was to learn, hopefully from architects.  I just threw out some things that I understood to the best of my knowledge were key components to routing a golf course.  If you dont ask, you dont find out.  Thus, I should be learning a lot this thread.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Flow? ? ? ? ? ?

Jordan, Describe Flow.

(I'm making you work for this one! )

Rustic Canyon has a pretty good flow and it breaks all of your thoughts on two different nines. You can't get much different on those two nines....

I agree with Geoff that Pac Dunes is probably the best example, as is Cypress Point Club.

Ryan,
I'll call you tomorrow! (or you call me) (evening) Sorry, I have been pretty busy as of late.

As far as Talking Stick, Why I think it is a superb example f how to route a golf course is simply because how a boundry dictated much of both 18's, more specifically the infamous #2. Talking with Bill about it, it was as I surmised, one of the things he first looked at and worked from on a totally devoid piece of land. Also, the hi-end and low ends of the course where the water would eventually drain were essential.

Never mind the fact that some of the most subtle shaping to disguise or camouflage the totally devoid land--as well as keep the clubhouse with-in easy reach of any hole on the course. At least what I've seen.

[Jordan Wall]

Tommy,

I would think that flow would include short green to tee walks, and staying consistent with what the land offers.  Using the land as best as possible is obviously important when trying to design the best eighteen holes on a given property, correct.  That is presumably why the routing at CPC is so good, at least from what I can tell.  Shackleford notes in his book how Mackenzie creates great holes and it can be hard for one to tell what is natural and what is not (for instance, how the back bunker on six blends in perfectly with the surrounds).  He does that throughout the entire course, which is probably why the course is so great.

I'm just kind of wondering out loud about this stuff.  Sometimes its hard to understand how to make a good routing, which is why I am hoping to get some good responses to understnad better.

Sandpines--Golf On The Oregon Dunes

(As in how to screw up an above normal, difficult piece of property that had all of the opportunities to be world class)

BTW Tommy, I played with a bud who had a tourney at SP last month.  I asked him what he thought of the course, he said it was the stupidest trip he'd ever taken, the course was that bad.  No lie either..

[ChipRoyce]

As far as Talking Stick, Why I think it is a superb example f how to route a golf course is simply because how a boundry dictated much of both 18's, more specifically the infamous #2. Talking with Bill about it, it was as I surmised, one of the things he first looked at and worked from on a totally devoid piece of land. Also, the hi-end and low ends of the course where the water would eventually drain were essential.

Never mind the fact that some of the most subtle shaping to disguise or camouflage the totally devoid land--as well as keep the clubhouse with-in easy reach of any hole on the course. At least what I've seen.

Tommy;
Very excited to hear you speaking about Talking Stick. Having played about a month ago, I thought it to be an excellent track but haven't yet taken the time to think about the "why" other than some of the more creative holes, such as #2 which stood out as incredible "puzzle" to try to figure out.

[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:

I'm in the middle of trying to write a two-page explanation of the routing process for golf courses.  I promise to share when I'm finished.  It's a very complex subject, and two pages probably isn't enough, but if I edit long enough I may get it.

Nearly everyone I talk to about the subject has a checklist of things they are trying to achieve, which I think is a terrible place to start, because it often results in deciding "I have to put in a par five now" when it isn't the spot for one.  I only go back to a checklist at the end, and I am much more willing to miss a couple of check marks for something which "flows" as you put it.

I tend to start by finding a few holes on the property which I really like, and then figuring out how to make the connections.  But, you have to be willing to give up one of the holes you like in order to make the others work out best.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom:

One thing I thought about yesterday while driving back from a local Stiles and Van Kleek course with routing (and you came to mind specifically) is as to whether or not you (or anyone) has routed a golf course from the "middle" out so to speak - with no particular start or finish in mind.

[Forrest Richardson]

Routings are stories. Like any good writing, there are no rules, yet there are givens and general guidelines. A decent story will lure the reader into the scene. It will entice. It will transport. And it will unfold with a dose of prediction and unprediction. It may have a chase scene. A climax. Anticipations. Unexpected turns. Etc.

One can winnow a "white paper" about routing, as Tom D. is doing. There are many such examples within books and articles. And, right here on GCA. I will guess there are 20 or more posts specifically about routing. A read of those threads would be an excellent "book" on its own, and likely not too long a read.

One of the greatest aspects of this art form is that for every opinion there is bound to be an alternative viewpoint or case study that might go against the opinion — or at least cause doubt or reflection in another direction.

[Jim Johnson]

One can winnow a "white paper" about routing, as Tom D. is doing. There are many such examples within books and articles.

Pretty good book, Forrest.  

JJ

[Forrest Richardson]

Thank you for the comment. It was certainly more than a "white paper" — I guess it was scores of white papers, all linked together.