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Matt_Ward

Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« on: June 14, 2007, 05:57:08 PM »
I have had the pleasure in attending each of the US Opens since 1973 at Oakmont.

My return for the '07 championship is something that has only served to reinforce the fact already knew in just how simply great Oakmont truly is.

The elimination of the trees was a big part but the sheer scale and the rolling nature of the Western Pennsylvania property is beyond majestic -- it is tour de force type stuff.

I watched Tiger play today's first round and if not for the sheer will / determination that he brings to eachand every round it is very likely a mid-70 score would have been the result.

Oakmont is a true jewel of American golf design and rightly belongs among the very elite courses in this country. I have had the opportunity to play the course over the years and have never come away less than impressed by the sheer examination that is always required.

Credit the USGA and the Oakmont grounds staff for the first rate presentation you are going to see through the remainder of the event.

The rough is high where it needs to be and the opportunity to make low numbers will only come about when first rate execution is demonstrated.

Given my disdain for what the powes-that-be have done to Augusta I can honestly say that Oakmont is indeed a true powerhouse of a course and I am eagerly awaiting the final 54 holes with relish.











Phil Benedict

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2007, 06:53:09 PM »
I am there tomorrow and can't wait.  Course looks incredibly hard on TV.  Doubt that anyone will finish under par.

Brent Hutto

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2007, 09:24:03 PM »
It's less than a "wow" for me. Certainly a suitable venue for a major championship and I agree the views and terrain are nice but it would benefit from a few less tricked-up features.  

The famed "Church Pew" bunkers are just ugly and odd for the sake of being odd. I fail to see how the same strategic/penal characterstics wouldn't be equally well implemented with conventional bunkering.

The ninth green that shares a surface with the practice green is out of place at an important tournament.

The drainage ditches providing little narrow red-staked hazards are even less attractive than the "cops" at Hoylake and I'd think a world-class course (which Oakmont obviously is) would accomplish their function with underground drainage pipes.

All that said, there are magnificently over-the-top green green contours everywhere you look. And a few holes, like the incomparable third, are sufficient to render complaints mere quibbles without diminishing its stature as a great venue. But I just can't see how so many people think this is an attractive course, it's a near-perfect set of greens in a sea of multiple-cut rough and contrived bunkering.

David_Tepper

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2007, 10:00:34 PM »
I just wish the course did not look so thoroughly and relentlessly GREEN! ;)

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2007, 10:07:26 PM »
Just listened to one of the commentators say how much he loves the way Jim Furyk plays. Huh? The multiple backoffs are brutal to watch. His quirks surpass the Garcia regrips and Olazabel head twitches as far as blue ribbon annoyance goes. I'm Tivoing just so I can fast forward every time Furyk comes on screen.

On topic, has there ever been a championship course with so many half-par holes? I love the variety. 288-yard par 3, 313-yard par 4, 500-yard par 4, 667-yard par 5. Really shows how ridiculous and rigid the concept of par has become rather than simply shooting a number.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2007, 11:21:11 PM »
On topic, has there ever been a championship course with so many half-par holes? I love the variety. 288-yard par 3, 313-yard par 4, 500-yard par 4, 667-yard par 5. Really shows how ridiculous and rigid the concept of par has become rather than simply shooting a number.

I could not agree more.

The course looks great on TV without trees.  I hope lots of clubs are watching.  Oakmont might just be the most bad ass golf course in the world.  Mr Fownes would be proud.  

Phil McDade

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2007, 11:28:01 PM »
I, too, was struck by the green-ness of the course, given the fast-and-firm trumpeting by the course setter-uppers prior to the Open. I usually associate F/F with a certain lack of lushness, ala Royal St. George's/Hoylake/Shinnecock. Can you have truly F/F conditions -- not just on the greens, but throughout the course -- with the course looking that green?

Other thoughts:

-- The internally staked, lateral-hazard (non-wet) ditches are...odd. I like the penal nature of the ditches, but they have no water, and they don't border the course or resemble a wetlands-like protected area that might be red-staked internally.

-- The variety of holes, as Dan mentions, are great. There's a great variety of clubs being used both off the tee and on approaches, which I view as a good test of a championship course.

-- I cannot believe how big Big Mouth is. Did anyone make an up-and-down from it today? Also, re. Matt Ward's point on George's thread on the 17th, did the course set-up on Thursday waste an "up" tee on a day when the narrow fairway of the 17th was holding some drivers? It was under 310, and Matt suggested a tee of around 296 under F/F conditions would be an ideal risk/reward set-up.

-- The green slopes are amazing. And TV flattens out the subtle ones; can't imagine what it's like to putt them.

-- John Kirk must like some of this, re. his theory on shots that take a long time to...end. Some of the slow rolls on the greens were fun to watch.


Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2007, 12:49:00 AM »
I have only played Oakmont once, in 1995.  I remember every hole and almost every shot I hit. I also remember the trees.  Looking at the course today, especially the arial shots, it hardly resembles the course I had played.  It looks absolutley wonderful.  I am going to havae to make it a point to get back.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark_F

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2007, 01:17:11 AM »

Oakmont is a true jewel of American golf design and rightly belongs among the very elite courses in this country.

Credit the USGA and the Oakmont grounds staff for the first rate presentation you are going to see through the remainder of the event.

In the newspapers here, a few of the Aussies were speculating that a 10 over score would be thereabout for the winning total.

Some jewel if that's the case.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2007, 02:42:29 AM »
I definitely have to give it a Wow!

It really does look and play a lot like a links course.  People can whine about the thick rough all they want, but it plays pretty similarly to much higher but less thick fescue on a links course.  Sometimes they could advance it, sometimes they couldn't.  I wonder if any of the other players were watching Phil and might get themselves a lofted hybrid/rescue club instead of hacking out with irons?

Those greens look to me to be MUCH tougher than ANGC's, simply judging by how long it takes for putts to roll.  I remember we had the discussion about what we thought we'd shoot at ANGC in the 2007 setup, and I was one of those criticized because I dared to think I could easily beat 100 and probably beat 90 on a good day.  But whatever I shot at ANGC, I'll bet it'd be at least 10 strokes less than what I'd shoot at Oakmont, especially if it firms up a bit more between now and Sunday!

I don't have a problem with the quirky features like the ditches, pews or sharing of the 9th and practice green.  That's history, its like suggesting that they grass over the road behind TOC's 17th and split all the double greens.

All I can say is that Oakmont has moved way up near the top of my list of places I'd really love to play someday.  Above ANGC, certainly....which is probably good because even though I'm not too likely to get a chance to play Oakmont the odds of that are a lot higher than me ever getting a chance to play ANGC!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2007, 08:10:24 AM »
Honestly, I'd love to see the Open at Oakmont every 3 or 4 years; the USGA hardly needs to touch the course to have be perfect for this tournament.  A rota with Shinnecock, Pinhurst, Pebble, and maybe Bethpage?

Mickelson was quoted today as saying that par is really 288, and that 286 would be a great score that could win.  In this instance, I think he and a lot of other players understand that the par written on the scorecard is a meaningless concept.

Also, somebody "holed out" on the putting green with their approach to 18 yesterday.  I would wonder if that is a first in major championship history; a hole out on another hole?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

tlavin

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2007, 09:00:12 AM »
This week's Open will be very significant for the voices in the wilderness who are trying to swing the golf/tree pendulum from arboretum to golf course.  It's remarkable how many trees you see in the background and off to the side, but virtually no trees between holes or around tees or greens.  I would venture to say that it is the best looking inland golf course I've ever seen on television.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2007, 09:06:06 AM »
This week's Open will be very significant for the voices in the wilderness who are trying to swing the golf/tree pendulum from arboretum to golf course.  It's remarkable how many trees you see in the background and off to the side, but virtually no trees between holes or around tees or greens.  I would venture to say that it is the best looking inland golf course I've ever seen on television.

Terry,

I completely agree.  

The scary part is if it gets a little brown, yellow, and even purple, it will look soooooo much better!

George Pazin

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2007, 09:11:51 AM »
It's less than a "wow" for me. Certainly a suitable venue for a major championship and I agree the views and terrain are nice but it would benefit from a few less tricked-up features.  

The famed "Church Pew" bunkers are just ugly and odd for the sake of being odd. I fail to see how the same strategic/penal characterstics wouldn't be equally well implemented with conventional bunkering.

The ninth green that shares a surface with the practice green is out of place at an important tournament.

The drainage ditches providing little narrow red-staked hazards are even less attractive than the "cops" at Hoylake and I'd think a world-class course (which Oakmont obviously is) would accomplish their function with underground drainage pipes.

All that said, there are magnificently over-the-top green green contours everywhere you look. And a few holes, like the incomparable third, are sufficient to render complaints mere quibbles without diminishing its stature as a great venue. But I just can't see how so many people think this is an attractive course, it's a near-perfect set of greens in a sea of multiple-cut rough and contrived bunkering.

All I can say is you're wrong on almost all points - :) - and I think you'd agree with me if you ever see Oakmont in person.

In all seriousness, TV fails to capture the grand scale of the venue, and the dramatic nature of the topography. In person, few, if any, of the features look "tricked up". They simply look awesome.

The church pews are a wonderfully unique hazard. They provide a real element of quirk and chance - one can get a good enough lie to go for the green, and one may have to blast out to the fairway.

I daresay if more course had fairway bunkering the nature of Oakmonts, all golfers and the game itself would benefit greatly.

As for the green appearance, it is not nearly as much so in person, that's another area in which TV "enhances" (not to the geeks like us, but the average viewer) the look. I'm not saying the enhancement is intentional, it might be an unintended consequence of changing the infinite color spectrum humans have into the lesser spectrum of TV, but the course looks far more natural in person. Plus, it rained last week and Wednesday night as well.

Mark F, what the winner shoots is irrelevant, it's how he shoots it that will showcase Oakmont's greatness. I don't think you'll see Geoff Ogilvy, a fine Aussie, complaining that the only shot that was required was a good flop shot.

And, as an aside, Aaron Baddeley's wife is really gorgeous in person as well.

 :)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 09:13:42 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Foley

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2007, 09:48:48 AM »
Of all the recent major tourneys the two that I really wanted to see live we're Shinnecock & Oakmont. Their history and scope of the property intrigued me tremendosuly. Shinny was great, but due to work commitments I couldn't get to PA this week. However on TV it looks fabulous! I ran into Circuit City last night to look for something and walked by the HD TV section. I was amazed by what I saw. The fairway slopes & contours really jumped out. It did look pretty green but by Sunday I think it will brown up nicely.

As for the tree's, this is further proff that the best golf courses in the world have no trees!!

Not to prod the sleeping bear, but I have not heard one person say anything about the Fazio's team tweak to Oakmont! They changed the Church Pews!!. I think it looks fantastic.

Integrity in the moment of choice

Justin_Zook

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2007, 12:10:18 PM »
The course definitely looks incredible.  I think I saw on 15, did they just mow that green line strait over into squarish looking front corners?  It might just be the approach.  As things dry out, we might find it harder and harder to differentiate between approach and green, and that's just lovely.

I LOVE the 9th/practice green.  That is so classy.  It carries with it almost an Old Course feel.  A double green that's 22,000 square feet.  I worked at a course with a practice green that was 12,000 square feet and I thought that was plenty ample.  It looked like they enlarged it also from '94.  I love the squareness of it and the internal undulation.  It reminds me so much of the classic old "rota" links with the clubhouse in the background and the 18th green tucked up against it.

I also love the look of the ditches.  

I love the 3rd hole, it reminds me a little of the 10th at Shinnecock with the green perched up on the hill.  

I would love to see this course turn a nasty, brownish sort of light-greenish/yellowish, purplish sort of thing.   And by nasty, I mean nasty, but I also mean beautiful, because the two can exist together.
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Cliff Hamm

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2007, 12:27:27 PM »
I would ditto the comments made including that it looks too green.  My major objection is not the length or toughness of the rough but the narrowness of the fairways.  The USGA simply continues to narrow the fairways in order to protect par.  This was evident at WF last year and continues this year.  I continue to believe the PGA set its championship up better by not attempting to protect par at all cost but still making the course super challenging.

 For me the Open has always been my favorite but frankly it is becoming boring as a spectator with the paucity of birdies.  It seems more like a survival contest.  I suspect that's what the USGA desires but for my taste give me  at least a few birdies.  Somewhat wider fairways would accomplish this.

George Pazin

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2007, 12:42:18 PM »
Cliff, all I can say is that I was there Wed. and yesterday, and the course looks nowhere near as green as it looks on TV - on my TV at work it looks almost garish.

One thing that amazes me about Oakmont is how fast it is, given the pitch and contours. It confirms my belief that all those clubs removing contour/pitch to speed up greens are just flat out wrong - pun intended.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2007, 01:40:19 PM »
What makes Oakmont so utterly unique is the rolling terrain which too often gets lost in the shuffle with all the talk about the tree removal, the speed of the greens and the nature of certain holes that have been lengthened -- e.g., the 8th and 12th, which come quickly to mind.

The rolling terrain is now opened up to the shifting winds and the views of all the different holes is indeed a sight to behold.

One last comment for now -- the par-5 12th is a real bear of a hole. Through yesterday's first round stats the hole topped out as the 6th most demanding hole on the course. You MUST hit fairway and then HIT the 2nd shot before a birdie opportunity is remotely in play. A TRUE three-shot hole.

Mark_F

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2007, 07:27:50 PM »

Mark F, what the winner shoots is irrelevant, it's how he shoots it that will showcase Oakmont's greatness. I don't think you'll see Geoff Ogilvy, a fine Aussie, complaining that the only shot that was required was a good flop shot.

And, as an aside, Aaron Baddeley's wife is really gorgeous in person as well.

 :)

George,

There has to be something wrong somewhere when Adam Scott, the 4th best player in the world and in some reasonably good form the past few weeks, is on 18 over par.

I'm glad you managed to get close enough to Aaron's wife to ascertain her own particular form of greatness.

I've not had the pleasure yet, and I'm most jealous.  :)

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2007, 07:37:01 PM »
Quote
There has to be something wrong somewhere when Adam Scott, the 4th best player in the world and in some reasonably good form the past few weeks, is on 18 over par.

Mark,

Why?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 07:37:52 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

Mark_F

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2007, 07:43:41 PM »
Lloyd,

Because the best players in the world aren't that bad.

I know everyone has to play the same course etc etc, so obviously there is also the fact that the course has gotten to Scott somehow, but when a course is set up like that, luck comes far too much into play.

An odd bounce and one player may be in the rough on the downside of a bunker and have no real play, the other may have a shot.

Missing the fairway by a mere two yards, as I saw repeatedly on the today's telecast, shouldn't result in an unsighted ball requiring a herculean smash to get out of.

The Sandbelt doesn't require it.  :)

JohnV

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2007, 09:07:35 PM »
The ninth green that shares a surface with the practice green is out of place at an important tournament.

I suppose you don't like the double greens at St. Andrews either?

As for the green look.  They got 1.4 inches of rain last Friday and another .4 on Wednesday.  Grass tends to get green when you give it water and then the sun comes out.

Mark,
Adam Scott hit 36% of the fairways and 28% of the green today.  Thank goodness he only had 30 putts or he might not have broken 90.

As I commented on another topic, players who missed the fairway in the first full cut of rough were able to get the ball on or around the green most of the time.  Those who missed by 15 yards into the really thick stuff couldn't.  If you can't get it within 25-30 yards of the middle of the fairway do you deserve to get away with it?

Phil McDade

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Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2007, 09:15:31 PM »
John:

Were you with Cabrea today? He's played awfully good golf these past two days.

I did see on TV today that the greens in particular are starting to brown up and look pretty slick.

JohnV

Re:Oakmont -- nothing less than "wow" indeed !
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2007, 09:24:23 PM »
I was with him yesterday.  He played very solid golf, with 3 birdies on the first 5 holes.  He shot 33 on the front and really only missed two shots, his tee shots on 6 which found the right bunker and on 7 where he put it in the primary rough but still got it on the green.  On the back 9, he bunkered his tee shot on 10 and had to layup, birdied 12 with great third shot from the deep rough 100 yards from the green and bogied 17 after pulling an iron into the main rough off the tee, hitting his second into an almost impossible position above one of the bunkers on the left of the green and then just missing a 4 footer down the hill.

On 9 and 18 he crushed his drives just like he did today on 9 and missed very makeable birdie putts on both of them.