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Jason Blasberg

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2007, 07:56:41 PM »
TP:

You're definitely right that modern designs, save Brian Silva's
stuff (which I've not yet played) don't really have many template holes.  I like that fact.  

 

Mike Sweeney

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2007, 08:05:32 PM »
TP:

You're definitely right that modern designs, save Brian Silva's
stuff (which I've not yet played) don't really have many template holes.  I like that fact.  

 

Jason,

Welcome to the GCA Double Standard club!!  ;)

Redan @ HC


Short @ HC
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 08:06:20 PM by Mike Sweeney »

TEPaul

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2007, 08:43:36 PM »
Mike:

Basically, I doubt Bill Coore gives a shit about what this website defines as a redan or short copy. To say the 11th hole at HC is a replica of a "short" template hole is the funniest thing I've almost ever heard on this website.  ;)

Mike Sweeney

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2007, 09:14:32 PM »
Mike:

Basically, I doubt Bill Coore gives a shit about what this website defines as a redan or short copy. To say the 11th hole at HC is a replica of a "short" template hole is the funniest thing I've almost ever heard on this website.  ;)

Some background, Jason and I played yesterday and HC came up. Probably should have been delivered as an IM, but that is no fun for members and potential members of the GCADSC.

TEPaul

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2007, 09:20:44 PM »
Mike:

Maybe I'm just getting too old but I'm really not that up on the incredible modern language of constant acronyms.  ;)

Mike Sweeney

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2007, 09:25:29 PM »
Mike:

Maybe I'm just getting too old but I'm really not that up on the incredible modern language of constant acronyms.  ;)

Your protege in Maine struggels with them too!

Jason Blasberg

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2007, 08:20:52 AM »
HC's redan is a perfect example of doing very well with a very average part of that property.

The 11th is an example of building an awesome hole on an exciting little knoll.  

Mike Sweeney

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2007, 09:46:04 AM »
Tom Paul,

Wasn't/isn't Ben Crenshaw a big fan of Thomas' short hole the ninth at Whitmarsh?

TEPaul

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2007, 09:54:27 AM »
"Tom Paul,
Wasn't/isn't Ben Crenshaw a big fan of Thomas' short hole the ninth at Whitmarsh?"

Probably. A lot of people are and have been but that's a short little drop shottish hole, not much like HC's #11 except both happen to be short.

wsmorrison

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2007, 11:02:26 AM »
Flynn (September 1927) on greens:

"There has been in the past considerable copying in the designs of greens.  The custom has been to select so-called famous holes from abroad and attempt to adapt them to a particular hole.  While it is a simple matter to copy a design it is almost impossible to turn out a green that resembles the original.  This is not due to any technical reason but is on account of the surroundings being different from the original.  

Copying greens in detail is not generally a good plan but there should be no hesitation about copying the principal connected with any green particularly when it is good.

It has often been said that architects have designs for 18 greens and that the same ones are used over and over again on various layouts.

A successful architect of today does not follow that system.  His greens are born on the ground and made to fit each particular hole.

In constantly designing greens it is very easy for an architect to acquire a pet type and to apply this frequently, thus creating greens of great similarity.  A tremendous amount of study must be given each site on the ground and also on paper so as to get distinctive types, thus avoiding sameness."

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2007, 11:23:06 AM »
I'm asking this question in all seriousness: How many 'different' holes are there, from tee to green, in the world of golf?

There's ca. 275k holes in the US, about 6.5k in Ireland, add in the rest of the world , doesn't there come a point when everything becomes a template??
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2007, 11:32:49 AM »

Thanks for the post; I've never had the balls to ask this question on this site, feeling that I'd be pilloried for blasphemy.  I think the answer is "yes".  It does strike me as a GCA cover up to use your phrase.  We tend to gush over a redan hole, but is it really anything other than copying the work of another?  (Sidebar:  I was playing Riviera when one of my playing partners act as if he had been struck by the hand of God when he realized one of the par threes was a redan.)

If Fazio was caught doing this kind of work, some would slam him, but we heap praise on Raynor who gives all appearances of being a recidivist template master.


Terry,
Just the opposite actually. I wish he would try to utilize some templete holes, in an effort to learn something about strategy, which of the courses I've played or seen are severly lacking in it in one form or another. But it all goes against the Fazio grain of things. It doesn't fit in a frame very well.

As far as Riviera, I think the 4th is about as good of a Redan as you'll find, Especially IF it still played in Cucoos Bent. But it doesn't. Kikuyu has affected the personality of this great hole. (It's still great in my opinion) As far as where it exists--the land--it fits the personality of a Redan like a glove fits on a hand.  Let's go look at another Redan on what many will consider a superior piece of property then Riviera (which ironically, George Thomas himself considered not the greatest piece of property) LACC #11.

If LACC #11 isn't the best use of a Redan concept (in this case Nader/Reverse Redan concept with it's dramatic views of downtown LA then George Thomas was a lacky who doesn't deserve to be in the same category as Tom Fazio.

As far as Hidden Creek's Redan, I find it laughable that anyone could call suggest it's anything less then great architecture and I think daily of how great it would be to be able to play Hidden Creek on a daily basis. It's a course that has left a great impression on my study or quest of great architecture. Call me ignorant if you will, but I find the entire property to be great golf land. At the least, my kind of golf land. At least they proved it in what they created.

wsmorrison

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2007, 12:24:41 PM »
"Wayne,
How can you write, with a straight face, this line about Macdonald: "Rather than leading by example"?"

Jim,

While you cannot know if I had a straight face or not when I typed the post, I am sincere in my belief.  While their courses are fun to play and influencial, there are portions of their courses that lack true artistic creativity, especially with the protoges Raynor and Banks.

You mention in your response that I wrote only about Macdonald.  In fact, I referred to Macdonald and his protoges, not just Macdonald.  That should have been clear with the use of "they" in my post:

"I don't know if Macdonald and proteges had to use templates, but they sure did on every golf course.  Why did they stick to such a systematic design style?  Clearly there was a market for it, but it indicates to me a reliance that was likely based upon a lack of conceptual range, a lack of naturalism and a lack of artistic independence.  Rather than leading by example, they were adept at giving the people what they want.  What does that mean?  It is clearly open to interpretation."

I did not mean to imply that they did not design original holes.  In Macdonald's case, and with his collaboration with Raynor, they are very interesting.  The polling to determine great holes in UK golf and replicating them conceptually or more exactly, in America is a lesser creative effort.  To systematically pop them out of the ground without tie ins or any sense of naturalism is an artifice that plays well but is not aesthetically appealing.  A reliance on template greens and green features that are so overtly contrived is not something I see genius in.  It is copying someone else's work.  It may be great marketing, but it is not great architecture because it lacks originality.  As I stated in my post, that's what it means to me.  It is open to interpretation.  I perfectly understand that others disagree.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2007, 01:16:49 PM »
I first placed the golf holes which were almost unanimously considered the finest of their character in Great Britain. We found a setting for the Alps hole wich the Whighams, fine golfers, who were brought up in Prestwick, considered to be superior to the original type. Strange as it may seem, we had to look back ad find a perfect Redan which was absolutely natural. Ben Sayers, well-known professional at North Berwick, told me he thought it superior to the original.

Although the Eden was voted to be the best one-shot hole in Great Britain, it had many detractors for the reason that a player could top his ball on the tee and it was possbile to reach the green without fear of punishment. So while I built the green identically tith that at St. Andrews, I had the tee sot played over some seventy-five yards of water and meadow grass, which of course, satisfied the just criticism.--Chas B. MacDonald Scotland's Gift-Golf


So for the most part, I disagree with Jason's observations--as far as MacDonald is concerned. When considering Raynor's VAST writings on the subject, (as in there are none) as well as his pension for following MacDonald's step one for one, two for two, etc., I think it's safe to say that I don't doubt that they placed a templete once in a while in a less-then-interesting area, it was only because it fit there idea of what they were capable of working with. Once they built Lido and saw the power of manpower--as far as moving earth and sand, knowing the costs it became trivial. Something that would be discussed and debated on World Wide Web Internet sites for years to come! ;)

Tommy_Naccarato

ARTS & CRAFTS ARCHITECTURE RENEWED
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2007, 02:16:13 PM »
I read a golf article not long ago since in which the writer called a"fetish" the copying of holes from classical courses of Great Britain, holes which have the testimony of all of the great golfers for more then a century or two past as being expressive of the best and noblest phases of the game.

Architecture is one of the five fine arts. If the critic's contention is true, then architecture must be a "fetish," as the basis of it is the copying of Greek and Roman architecture, Romanesque and Gothic, and in our own times among other forms, Georgian and Colonial architecture. One must have the gift of imagination to succesfully apply the original to new situations. Surely there is nothing "Fetish" about this.

I believe in reverencing anything in the life of man which has the testimony of the ages as being unexcelled, whether it be literature, paintings, poetry, tombs--even a golf hole.

Perhaps it may be apropos to close this chapter by quoting another great landscpae architect, Prince Puckler:

"Time is not able to bring forth new truths but only an unfolding of timeless truths."--Charles B. MacDonald Scotland's Gift Golf


To me, this quote would be proof that Charles B. MacDonald was influenced by architecture more then the pundits might not want to admit, because it would prove that Tom MacWood was correct in his findings. At least where Charles B. MacDonald, the Father of American Golf and a Golf Architect is concerned.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2007, 03:47:00 PM »
Wayne,
I did see the 'they', I don't think you are insincere in your beliefs, I do think your view of creativity as it relates to GCArchitects is, perhaps, a bit narrow.



 

« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 03:53:23 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

wsmorrison

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2007, 05:04:35 PM »
Tommy,

Thanks for posting those quotes, they are insightful.

Jim,

Narrow at least when it comes to Macdonald and his protoges  ;)

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2007, 06:09:52 PM »
Tommy,

The comparison to architecture is rhetorical rather than literal.  What Macdonald did in the context of designing a great US links course to rival the best Scottish and UK courses makes sense -- take the best of what has come before, learn from it, use it, try to improve upon it.   But he is comparing his methods and approach to qualities that stand the test of time, in his opinion, rather than comparing his methods to the practice of architecture itself.  Quite frankly, I don't think he was terribly influenced by architecture.  He could have said the same thing about music, literature, etc.  If he was so influenced, then how did he apply classical principles of architecture to golf course architecture?  As for revering things "unexcelled" for the ages, how long had the courses he referenced been around before NGLA?  It certainly isn't the gap of time between Antiquity and the Renaissance or beyond.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2007, 06:55:59 PM »
James,
Of course its rhetorical. MacDonald was a rhetorical kind of guy. You either seen it his way or you didn't therefore you ceased to exist! (a bit of a meglomaniac, but that was O.K. with me. He's the kind of guy that deserved that kind of a pass!)

Simply put, you either took MacDonald serious literally or he rhetorically rejected you! ;) Just look at the image of MacDonald in Geoff Shackelford's Masters of the Links, the one where MacDonald is like on a stage addressing a rather larger group of people, finger pointed in the air announcing to all that his word was the rule and the law and you better not stray from it!

To open the chapter in Scotland's Gift, MacDonald wrote:

To my mind every aspirant who wishes to excel in golf architecture should learn by heart and endeavor to absorb the spirit of the following lines, copied from "The Art of Landscpae Architecture," written by the Great Humphrey Repton in 1797:

  "If it should appear that, instead of displaying new doctrines or furnishing novel ideas, this volume serves rather by a new method to elucidate old established principles, and to confirm long received opinions, I can only plead in my excuse that the true taste is in every art, consist more in adapting tried expedients to peculiar circumstances than in that inordinate thirst for novelty, the characteristic of uncultivated minds, which from the facility of inventing wild theories, without experience, are apt to suppose that taste is displayed by novelty genius by innovation, and that every change must necessarily tend to improvement."


While it is easy to denounce this as landscape architecture, MacDonald is clearly quoting Repton; then pointing that commanding finger, the same finger which he poised up in the air that his word was law--because lets face it, that's what he is doing with such a jesture and he is telling you....AND ME that Just like when he says, I believe in reverencing anything in the life of man which has the testimony of the ages as being unexcelled, whether it be literature, paintings, poetry tombs--EVEN A GOLF HOLE.

He is saying that they are one in the same, just like I've said in the past wine is like golf holes as architects are like vinters. There's a huge difference between a good shower head and a lousy one and a great shave and one that is basically just a brush over to quickly get the job done--but your going to have to come back sooner then later to do it all over again. It's only going to last so long before you start to look like you woke-up on the wrong side of the bed, late mind you!


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2007, 07:17:40 PM »
Further you wrote,

If he was so influenced, then how did he apply classical principles of architecture to golf course architecture?  
As I stated, he referenced them in the same way a wine maker blends certain grapes to create an unbelievable wine; or how a quality cigar maker rolls his own, rather then lets a machine do it. It's all art.

As for revering things "unexcelled" for the ages, how long had the courses he referenced been around before NGLA?  
He didn't reference any courses in this statement, he said ...even a golf hole. I think its obvious he took advantage of many golf holes from Great Britain when recreating their strategies here in America. Many of those holes you can still see for yourself in a very evolved form today when visiting Great Britain. We are fortunate for that.

It certainly isn't the gap of time between Antiquity and the Renaissance or beyond.

Clearly, MacDonald is referencing Golf as he learned it abroad as a child and thereafter. He was fortunate to have known both Old Tom and Young Tom Morris, as well as many others. He saw things about the GREAT game (sport) which we as American's never really got to see or understand as the sport has evolved in directions I don't think he approved of.

He was a protector of the old game. He wanted to protect it by going so far as to try and rule it beyond appropriate behavior. I do believe he was a control freak for the obvious reasons. But in the end his worst fears would be realized--the sport got so popular so fast that many wouldn't understand the truest gifts from it--a way of life.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2007, 08:21:21 PM »
In general, I find templates to indicate a lack of creativity and an artificial device lacking a natural appearance.  Fun to play but aesthetically unappealing.

I agree entirely.


Is that your unanimous assessment of the 4th at NGLA ?

"An artificial device lacking a natural appearance" ?

Interesting perspectives  ;D

What do you think of the 7th, 8th and 11th at NGLA ?
[/color]
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 08:26:54 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

wsmorrison

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2007, 08:50:27 PM »
As you read, Pat, I said in general.  Of course there are exceptions and most by Macdonald alone.  I have also stated many times that Macdonald was not as formulaic and artificial as his protoges.

I think the 4th an excellent usage of an earlier concept.  Is it better than the original?  I don't think so, as I like that the original is elevated and the way to play the hole is not so evident nor was it constructed based on a template but rather on natural ground.

I think the 7th is a good hole, not great.  It falls very short of the original Road Hole.  I don't know the original Bottle Hole at Sunningdale, but I do like the 8th at NGLA though the split fairway doesn't make a lot of sense to me and the artificial nature of the green site, though challenging and fun, isn't very appealing to me on a seaside course.  As for the 11th, I love the green but the hole has suffered greatly from technology.  The bunkering on that hole in particular and elsewhere on the course just isn't in play.

I am sure you can come up with a very long list of template holes by the National School architects (conceived by others) that can be categorized as artificial and lacking natural appearance.  I am not nearly as familiar with their work as you and can produce a such a list.  When you visit us in Philadelphia in the next few weeks, we can take the discussion further  ;)


wsmorrison

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2007, 09:07:46 PM »
Now that is a nice example of the rare Flynn variation of a Redan concept.  He used this theme at Philadelphia Country Club (7th) and a different style at Huntingdon Valley (3rd) that allows a precise run-up approach.  At Shinnecock, Flynn revised Macdonald's Redan (which surprisingly had Biarritz style bunkering---I guess you can comment on the multiple templates on that previous hole design) with his own concept similar to the th at PCC, which makes run-up shots nearly impossible.  It was an aerial approach demand that separated Flynn's design from previous ones.

As for the photos you posted of the 7th at Shinnecock, I hope you teed it up on the site of the Flynn tee, it works a lot better than the Macdonald tee currently in use.  Tom and I think they should restore the Flynn tee and keep the Macdonald tee as well.  I can demonstrate a compelling case that the Flynn green (raised above the Macdonald green) and bunkering complex is an improvement on the previous 1916 design.  Again, when we get together down here, there will be lots to discuss.  I hope you have the time and desire to do so.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The use of MacDonald/Raynor Template Holes
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2007, 09:35:46 PM »
Wayne,

Some photos are taken from the current tee, others from a different angle.

Where "exactly" is the Flynn tee ?

At what yardage, and how far removed from the border of the current tee ?

And is it left or right of the current tee ?