[Jason Blasberg]

Have they been used to mask mediocre golfing ground?  The 9th at Piping Rock with Biarritz swale, the Redan 7th at Shinnecock, the 4th Edan, 8th Nader, 11th Biarritz and 17th Short at the Creek, the 5th Short at Yale are all examples of templates on highly regarded courses all of which contain spectacular golfing ground, none of which is used on any of these template holes.  

Are templates the greatest GCA cover up in history?!!
   

[wsmorrison]

The 7th at Shinnecock is Flynn.  The tee was moved slightly left and though the green is on nearly the exact footprint of the Macdonald green, it was raised and rebuilt by Flynn.  Holes 1 (except the elevation change on the tee shot),2,3,4,5,6,7,8,16 and 17 are all on featureless land.  Flynn didn't need to use templates (though the 7th is conceptually reminiscent of the 7th at Philadelphia Country Club and 3rd at Huntingdon Valley).  

The less dynamic the ground, the more Flynn used bunkers and green slopes to provide interest and influence strategy.

In general, I find templates to indicate a lack of creativity and an artificial device lacking a natural appearance.  Fun to play but aesthetically unappealing.

[Jason Blasberg]

In general, I find templates to indicate a lack of creativity and an artificial device lacking a natural appearance.  Fun to play but aesthetically unappealing.

I agree entirely.

[SPDB]

What's "spectacular golfing ground" within the context of the 3-4 courses you cited? I'm lost.

Wayne:

I'm puzzled (but not surprised) by the comment that "Flynn didn't need to use template holes." The implicit message is that Raynor/MacD needed to use these holes. Care to elaborate?

[Mike Sweeney]

The less dynamic the ground, the more Flynn used bunkers and green slopes to provide interest and influence strategy.

Wayne,

You forgot the Rees Jones mounds too!







PS. If there are any Kittansett fans out there, I loved that course, just trying to tweak the Philly guys.  

[wsmorrison]

First of all Sweeney, you remain a Philly guy even immersed in New Yorkdom.  

I love Kittansett as well.  Hey, Flynn had to do something with all those rocks:





SBerry,

Flynn's tendency to use natural ground and make architecture look natural, especially with the way he tied things in to immediate and distant surroundings differentiated Flynn from many other architects.  Flynn and all architects don't have to use templates.  He and others simply chose not to design by poll and by template.  His inspiration came from within and was expressed in original designs and site specific details.  However, Flynn did have one template, that is a short dogleg par 4 with the direct line from tee to green (line of instinct) fraught with hazards.  The outside of the dogleg was meant to be the ideal way to play his only version of a template.  This was first used at the original 4th at Lancaster CC (1920) and later seen at the 12th at Pine Valley, the 10th at Merion East (1922), the 5th at Glen View (1922), the 7th at Cherry Hills (1923), the 6th at Denver CC, the current 1st at Philadelphia CC (1927), the 4th at Huntingdon Valley, and elsewhere.

I don't know if Macdonald and proteges had to use templates, but they sure did on every golf course.  Why did they stick to such a systematic design style?  Clearly there was a market for it, but it indicates to me a reliance that was likely based upon a lack of conceptual range, a lack of naturalism and a lack of artistic independence.  Rather than leading by example, they were adept at giving the people what they want.  What does that mean?  It is clearly open to interpretation.

[JMorgan]

First of all Sweeney, you remain a Philly guy even immersed in New Yorkdom.  

I love Kittansett as well.  Hey, Flynn had to do something with all those rocks:





SBerry,

Flynn's tendency to use natural ground and make architecture look natural, especially with the way he tied things in to immediate and distant surroundings differentiated Flynn from many other architects.  Flynn and all architects don't have to use templates.  He and others simply chose not to design by poll and by template.  His inspiration came from within and was expressed in original designs and site specific details.  However, Flynn did have one template, that is a short dogleg par 4 with the direct line from tee to green (line of instinct) fraught with hazards.  The outside of the dogleg was meant to be the ideal way to play his only version of a template.  This was first used at the original 4th at Lancaster CC (1920) and later seen at the 12th at Pine Valley, the 10th at Merion East (1922), the 5th at Glen View (1922), the 7th at Cherry Hills (1923), the 6th at Denver CC, the current 1st at Philadelphia CC (1927), the 4th at Huntingdon Valley, and elsewhere.

I don't know if Macdonald and proteges had to use templates, but they sure did on every golf course.  Why did they stick to such a systematic design style?  Clearly there was a market for it, but it indicates to me a reliance that was likely based upon a lack of conceptual range, a lack of naturalism and a lack of artistic independence.  Rather than leading by example, they were adept at giving the people what they want.  What does that mean?  It is clearly open to interpretation.

Good lord!  

Wayne, how much time did Flynn spend at Kittansett?  Wasn't Hood responsible for the rocks?  I thought Flynn just routed the course.  Compared to Cascades, for instance, where he seems to have dynamited away the big stuff, that doesn't seem to fit Flynn.

My understanding of CBM's use of template holes -- from reading Scotland's Gift  and George's book a few times -- is that he believed those holes simply contained the best strategic qualities of the finest holes in the world... and then cue that Repton quote that Tom Paul always lays on us.  I remember when I first read that chapter in SG, I experienced strong cognitive dissonance... as if everything one needed to design a great hole already came prepackaged in the form of great golf architecture past, so what's the point?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wayne

First, as James says CBM's philosophy was Ecclesiastes 1:9.

What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Second, far from giving people what they wanted, the concept of templates was controversial; he came in for criticism in building The National.

Third, he didn't use templates exclusively.

Careful, you're veering into "Phillies Tradition" territory here!

Yours in Nats fandom
Mark

[wsmorrison]

James,

The oral tradition of Kittansett is that Flynn just routed the golf course and Hood designed the holes.  That is not correct.  Flynn and Hugh Wilson went over the grounds and Flynn submitted detailed construction plans for every hole.  These holes were built exactly according to the plans.  Flynn (well, maybe Flynn and Wilson) routed the golf course and Flynn designed the holes.

Mark,

While Macdonald (and Raynor and Banks) did not use templates exclusively, every one of their courses used a good number of them.  No other architects worked that way.  As for criticism of the methods used to build NGLA, wasn't he nearly universally acclaimed for creating the golf course?  It was regarded here and abroad as one of the greatest courses of all...and still is considered that today.  It is a wonderfully good golf course and a monumental achievement and influence in American golf course architecture.  Templates are not original and therefore are wanting in a creative sense.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wayne, the criticism he came in for I think was during the conceptual and building stages. After it opened I think was when the acclaim came.

As to lack of creativity, he did come up with the idea!

Mark

[John Foley]

Jason,

Could it be that much of the golfing ground is mediocre and that great template holes help provide the strategy to make up for it?

Not to hijack the thread, but....

Mike,

More pics, more pics!!! Those are great.

Wayne,

What was Hood's connection w/ the founders of Kittanset? Did he come from the local Marion / Butler point area and bring in Flynn to help for some reason?

I thought I may have read this before or do I have to wait for the hardcover

[tlavin]

Have they been used to mask mediocre golfing ground?  The 9th at Piping Rock with Biarritz swale, the Redan 7th at Shinnecock, the 4th Edan, 8th Nader, 11th Biarritz and 17th Short at the Creek, the 5th Short at Yale are all examples of templates on highly regarded courses all of which contain spectacular golfing ground, none of which is used on any of these template holes.  

Are templates the greatest GCA cover up in history?!!
   

Thanks for the post; I've never had the balls to ask this question on this site, feeling that I'd be pilloried for blasphemy.  I think the answer is "yes".  It does strike me as a GCA cover up to use your phrase.  We tend to gush over a redan hole, but is it really anything other than copying the work of another?  (Sidebar:  I was playing Riviera when one of my playing partners act as if he had been struck by the hand of God when he realized one of the par threes was a redan.)

If Fazio was caught doing this kind of work, some would slam him, but we heap praise on Raynor who gives all appearances of being a recidivist template master.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Have they been used to mask mediocre golfing ground?  The 9th at Piping Rock with Biarritz swale, the Redan 7th at Shinnecock, the 4th Edan, 8th Nader, 11th Biarritz and 17th Short at the Creek, the 5th Short at Yale are all examples of templates on highly regarded courses all of which contain spectacular golfing ground, none of which is used on any of these template holes.  

Are templates the greatest GCA cover up in history?!!
   

A bit of a stretch, IMHO.  I think most gca's wrote and actually built holes that were natural where nature allowed, and did more man made features on average ground, so that, as Tillie said, "the hole could stand up in polite company."

BTW, the Biarritz swale is an approximation of some real dramatic topo - the chasm of the ocean between tee and green!  

I think the overall use of the templates says more about CBM's beliefs about what constitutes "ideal play" (i.e., shot values) than it does about his theories of using land in routing or design.  Also, I think that his use of the temlates on the par 3's says the same - without any shot relationships, he felt that a specific shot type should be tested with a Redan, Biarritz, Short and Eden.  There is more variation in the long holes because the shot relationships can be set up in different ways.

Others probably know more, and those are just my observations.

[wsmorrison]

"Wayne,

What was Hood's connection w/ the founders of Kittanset? Did he come from the local Marion / Butler point area and bring in Flynn to help for some reason?"

Frederick C. Hood was an influencial member of The Country Club in Brookline, MA and a board member of the USGA Green Section.  He was in a group of founders of Kittansett Club that included J. Lewis Stackpole, Galen Stone and H. Nelson Emmons.  These men, and others, bought up the land on Butler's Point that Beverly Yacht Club did not own.  Stackpole was the Commodore of the Beverly Yacht Club.  Hood probably had more experience in golf than anyone else in the group of founders and may have been given the supervision of the development project.

The help that Hood brought Flynn in for was substantial; namely the routing and hole design of the entire course.  Hood oversaw the construction of the course to Flynn's specific plans.  It can be said that Hood "built the golf course" but he had no hand that we can determine in the design of the golf course.  We know Flynn and Wilson studied the ground and we have Flynn's construction drawings, which is how the course was constructed.  It is an early example of construction by precise architectural drawings.

[John Foley]

Wayne - Thanks.

I had heard about Beverly Yacht Club, but not w/ TCC.

[Dave Bourgeois]

I have only played the 5th at Yale out of the holes listed, and found it quite enjoyable.  Also, I am not sure what else could have gone there within the existing routing that would have been a suitable replacement.  

I think you are correct that templates can make mediocre ground interesting, and so I think that their use was pretty innovative for that time. I like playing "template" holes and enjoy how they look, but then again I have not seen enough to where I tire of them.

Is this purely an argument of the aesthetics of template holes, or are we saying that Raynor/Mac Donald/Banks lacked imagination in building greens on existing contours like Strong did on your home course?  

Personally I think think you have to look at the routing of a place like Yale, and how the "templates" fit in.  My opinion is that it all fits and adds to the boldness of the course.  When I played Yale, I was really blow away by the routing, and thought that you would have to be very creative to come up with a hole like 18.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wayne,
How can you write, with a straight face, this line about Macdonald: "Rather than leading by example"?

[Jason Blasberg]

I have only played the 5th at Yale out of the holes listed, and found it quite enjoyable.  Also, I am not sure what else could have gone there within the existing routing that would have been a suitable replacement.  

I think you are correct that templates can make mediocre ground interesting, and so I think that their use was pretty innovative for that time. I like playing "template" holes and enjoy how they look, but then again I have not seen enough to where I tire of them.

Is this purely an argument of the aesthetics of template holes, or are we saying that Raynor/Mac Donald/Banks lacked imagination in building greens on existing contours like Strong did on your home course?  

Personally I think think you have to look at the routing of a place like Yale, and how the "templates" fit in.  My opinion is that it all fits and adds to the boldness of the course.  When I played Yale, I was really blow away by the routing, and thought that you would have to be very creative to come up with a hole like 18.  

Dave, my observations about the 5th at Yale (or any of my references) are b/c I've played it/them multiple times and know them fairly well.  Yale has some incredible property, 5  however, is about the least interesting topography wise and my point is that Template holes make it easier to mask average ground.  

I love Yale and have generally liked every Mac/Raynor course I've played but is it possible that the use of Templates gave Mac/Raynor more wiggle room than other designers?  

At least is this the case as we look back on their work since their Templates are generally well regarded do they get a pass for some of them b/c they are a "Short" or "Redan" or "Edan."  

Put another way, is a Template a free connector routing-wise (and, if so, is there anything wrong with that)?

   

[TEPaul]

"Have they been used to mask mediocre golfing ground?"

Jason:

Of course they have. There's no question about it. Very good pick up on your part.


On most properties any architect is going to run into some ground that doesn't offer much naturally and in that case it's up to him to do something with it to create interest. Those kinds of template holes can certainly do that. They are proven commodities not for no reason.  

Matter of fact, some of those template greens are so good they can even be used in ways perhaps never tried.

Consider for a moment a totally flat piece of ground and then the placing of a green on it like the road hole green at NGLA. Consider how good it could be as a par 3 if you came at it from about 175 yards to the middle from over on the right behind the 8th tee.

Or consider how good it could be if you came at it as a long par 4 green from over in the vicinity of the 11th hole. Consider how good that application would be with a pin in the back narrow end of the green!

How about coming at that green as a par 3 from over in the vicinity of the 11th green?

[Jason Blasberg]

Of course they have. There's no question about it.

So why isin't this a more often voiced criticism . . . why don't we say the 7th at Shinny is on average land but Flynn made the best of it?   Perhaps someone has voiced this type of criticism but I've not seen it recently.

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, I'm just wondering whether you would have preferred MacDonald and Raynor to have built mediocre holes on that mediocre ground!  Have to agree with Tom Paul here, those template holes are a marvelous solution to otherwise mediocre ground.

The thing that continues to amaze me as I have a chance to play more of their courses is that GCA purists/minimalists worship these courses which have as much dirt moved as Fazio ever dreamed of!  I love them too, it's because the holes just work so well in the context of the land they are built on.

[TEPaul]

"So why isin't this a more often voiced criticism . . . why don't we say the 7th at Shinny is on average land but Flynn made the best of it?  Perhaps someone has voiced this type of criticism but I've not seen it recently."

Jason:

I'm not sure what difference it makes that that green was designed and constructed on otherwise flat ground either by Macdonald/Raynor or by Flynn.

In either case the hole just is what it is.



On that note I'll never forget Coore saying that the success of most courses is how well an architect does on those areas of sites with otherwise unimpressive natural areas or how well he solves problem areas in a routing or hole situation.

This is also why a guy like Fazio is so good----eg he has tremendous imagination to do something interesting with hugely naturally uninteresting areas, even whole sites.
 
 
 

[Jason Blasberg]

Jason:

I'm not sure what difference it makes that that green was designed and constructed on otherwise flat ground either by Macdonald/Raynor or by Flynn.

In either case the hole just is what it is.



On that note I'll never forget Coore saying that the success of most courses is how well an architect does on those areas of sites with otherwise unimpressive natural areas or how well he solves problem areas in a routing or hole situation.

This is also why a guy like Fazio is so good----eg he has tremendous imagination to do something interesting with hugely naturally uninteresting areas, even whole sites.
 

My point is that I think our favorite GCAs, classic or modern, get passes when others dont and I think the Template hole is an example.  

[TEPaul]

"My point is that I think our favorite GCAs, classic or modern, get passes when others dont and I think the Template hole is an example."

Jason:

It's true that a pretty good number of this site's favorite dead guys did variations of template holes but I don't see our current favorites doing them. Doak is the first to admit he thinks doing things like redans is not a good idea.

Personally, I think doing copies of various holes, particularly some template holes is a pretty good idea but as you can tell I'd like to use them from different directions and for different types and holes and pars than they've been used for before.

[Mike Sweeney]

Personally, I think doing copies of various holes, particularly some template holes is a pretty good idea but as you can tell I'd like to use them from different directions and for different types and holes and pars than they've been used for before.

4th at Morgan Hill Kelly Moran's course has a Biarritzish par 3 that goes east west rather than north south.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()