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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley #2
« on: June 13, 2007, 04:48:09 PM »
I have only played Pine Valley four times over the last ten years, but when ever I think of the course the first hole that comes to mind is #2, the second is #5.  I think it is one of the most beautiful and intimidating holes in golf.  The second shot is daunting and the green is downright scary.  For my money it is the best hole on the course.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2007, 04:57:32 PM »
How bout painting a picture preacher man.  I think I could convert if all your sermons are as short as above.  Never seen the course myself and would love an audatic description.
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G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2007, 05:10:46 PM »
i love the shape of the second fairway as it looks from the tee. just like many of the fairways at sunningdale old it harks back to classic old style design.
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Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 05:26:09 PM »
The putting surface at Pine Valley's second hole is an indescribable work of art. (One of eighteen at Pine Valley, actually!)  

I could study the second green alone for months.
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jeffmingay.com

John Kavanaugh

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 05:38:36 PM »
Are the bunkers nice?  How about a little effort given this must be one of the great holes in the world.  It might be fun to read your descriptions and then see a picture some time later to see how they match up.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 05:39:32 PM by John Kavanaugh »
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Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 06:08:08 PM »
For reference, here's the shot from the tee....


....and to the green:
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wsmorrison

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 06:10:26 PM »
Guess who stabilized the hillside below the 2nd green and put in those 2 bunkers?  It is the same guy who stabilized the slope below the 18th green and put bunkers in there as well.
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John Kavanaugh

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 06:14:21 PM »
It would have been fun to read the descriptions before I saw those pics.  I had already expected better.  I am completely lost on how this course can be the best in the world and or country.  It looks over-grown, over-designed, over-groomed and choked of all natural flow.  It honestly reminds me of an aging starlet whose time has come and gone.  The picture makes me sad.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 06:16:18 PM by John Kavanaugh »
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Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 06:32:46 PM »
How pedicured.  No corns or calluses from foot traffic there.  Where do people walk from the tee to the fairway and from the fairway to the green?
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 06:46:21 PM »
Wayne,
Let me guess - Flynn?  :)

Tommy,
I have only played Pine Valley zero times, but that's OK  because I've walked it twice.  When I first stood on #2 tee, I realized that I was at a course unlike any other.  To me, the second hole is simply one of the best holes in the world.

You can actually see #2 from Atlantic Ave.  I've actually stopped by just to look at #2 from the road (don't worry - I'm not that geeky - I was already near Clementon).

--------------
I've often wondered if Thompson was influenced by PV #2 when he built Highlands Links' #4:
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 06:49:14 PM by Dan Herrmann »
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 06:56:44 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 13, 2007, 06:14:21 PM
It would have been fun to read the descriptions before I saw those pics.  I had already expected better.  I am completely lost on how this course can be the best in the world and or country.  It looks over-grown, over-designed, over-groomed and choked of all natural flow.  It honestly reminds me of an aging starlet whose time has come and gone.  The picture makes me sad.

John,

Sadly, this is one of those rare times that we agree.
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 06:57:07 PM »
Quote from: Dan Herrmann on June 13, 2007, 06:46:21 PM


You can actually see #2 from Atlantic Ave.  I've actually stopped by just to look at #2 from the road (don't worry - I'm not that geeky - I was already near Clementon).


Uh, Dan,
I think you are that geeky, Atlantic Ave deadends into the town of Pine Valley. No one is that far down Atlantic Ave unless they are (i) playing Pine Valley, or (ii) stalking it.  ;D
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2007, 06:59:32 PM »
ok - you outed me - i'm a geek   8)

John - next time you're in Philly, let me know - we can go stalk PV...  She's definitely not as tired as you may think.  I've been to some of North America's finest courses, and the Valley is a simply amazing, awesome, jaw-dropping place.

Here's a picture of the green on PV 2:
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 07:05:17 PM by Dan Herrmann »
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2007, 07:06:36 PM »
Quote from: Joe Perches on June 13, 2007, 06:32:46 PM
How pedicured.  No corns or calluses from foot traffic there.  Where do people walk from the tee to the fairway and from the fairway to the green?

Joe - you just walk through the sandy areas.

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James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 07:08:26 PM »
The fairway is as wide as a freeway (perhaps a Kavanaugh piece of tarmac).  And the green is set on a road flyover.

I missed the (wide) fairway, played out of the bunkers and was still left with a 160 yard shot that was steeply uphill.  My caddy (the one who reads poetry) told me not to worry about the opposition who was on the green for two as he would three putt!  He was right.  If ever there is a green that sets a statement about what is to come, it is Pine Valley #2.  I haven't seen any photos of that here though, and I don't have any.

What my caddy omitted to tell me was not to be long, as there is jungle back there.  I think I made 6 or 7, which was a not uncommon number that memorable day.

James B

ps  Tommy, I agree with you - #2 and #5 stick in my mind as well.
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2007, 07:17:49 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 13, 2007, 04:57:32 PM
How bout painting a picture preacher man.  I think I could convert if all your sermons are as short as above.  Never seen the course myself and would love an audatic description.

As you stand on the tee the first thing you see is an eleevated green with bunkers on the face of the hill.  The green looks as though it sits thirty feet above the fairway.  The fairway is enourmous lined by unspeakaable rough and sand.  Hit it in either and it is a three shot hole.  If I hit the fairway I usually have a mid-iron or aat best a seven iron. The second shot is semi-blind because of the elevation of the green (maybe fifteen fee?)  The green slopes right to left and any shot above the hole is dead.  No matter wherer you are on the green two putts are good.  After a relatively nice first hole (for Pine Valley), two is a shock to the system.

Henry Longhurst (or some other Brit) stood on the tee and asked, "Do I play it or take a photo?"  It is a stunner.

BTW we generally have seats availiable.  Short sermons are my speciality on warm sunny Sundays.

Not to long ago I put the following on the church sign:
             Trouble sleeping?
             Pastor Tom's sermons on tape.

I told my secretary that when people called for a tape to say,"We don't have any tapes left.  They have been going like hotcakes."
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 07:23:48 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike_Cirba

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2007, 07:21:42 PM »
I should probably explain what I mean.

Pine Valley is without a doubt (at least in my mind) the best architecture ever built in golf.   There are at least 12-13 absolutely GREAT holes and good cases can be made for the other handful.

Cypress Point, while perhaps the most amazing spot on the planet, and utilized fully, still does not match up hole for hole, nor does Augusta, Merion, or even Shinnecock.  

It's amazing, and jaw-droppingly stunning as Dan and others here have suggested.

However, it is overgrown with trees and although some here have said they have a tree management program, it isn't nearly aggressive enough.   The formerly very natural looking sand waste areas and bunkers now look like Zen gardens in some Japanese Buddhist monastery.   Some bunkers have become so formalized and shored up with turf grasses that they could be from the local CCFAD...witness the bunker right of the 9th green for a classic example.  

It is therefore, at least in my mind, much like John Kavanaugh describes.   The shame is that it has nothing at all to do with age.
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2007, 07:27:00 PM »
Mike - aaaahhh..

Now that makes sense   ;)
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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2007, 07:30:37 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 13, 2007, 06:14:21 PM
It would have been fun to read the descriptions before I saw those pics.  I had already expected better.  I am completely lost on how this course can be the best in the world and or country.  It looks over-grown, over-designed, over-groomed and choked of all natural flow.  It honestly reminds me of an aging starlet whose time has come and gone.  The picture makes me sad.

I not sure how over-grown and over-groomed fit together, but the fringes can appear to be over-grown.  As for the over-groomed, the course does not feel that way.  I can say that the first time I played the course the sand fronting the green was a little wilder than the pictures indicate.
As for the flow of the course.  Each hole really does seem like it flows naturally into the next.

I'm not sure it is the best course in the country.  It is not everyone's cup of tee but it sure is a treat to play.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike_Cirba

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2007, 07:47:09 PM »





 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 07:50:12 PM by MPCirba »
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KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2007, 07:59:00 PM »
What holes in golf are as deceptively long relative to their yardage as PVGC #2?

You feel gravity's pull there, on on your tee shot and approach, as much as any hole of my experience.

Then you arrive at one of the best contoured putting surfaces in golf.

Ken
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2007, 08:03:26 PM »
Mike - so PV is golf's version of a Japanese garden?   :o
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2007, 08:16:07 PM »
Quote from: Dan Herrmann on June 13, 2007, 08:03:26 PM
Mike - so PV is golf's version of a Japanese garden?   :o

Dan,

The newly manicured (aka the formerly natural looking and unkempt sandy waste areas) waste areas speak for themselves.  It's pretty difficult to not see some parallel.

Just say "ohhmmm".  ;)
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2007, 08:28:35 PM »
It reminds of the Moody Blues' In Search Of A Lost Cord


The Word
(A po-em by Graeme Edge)

    This garden universe vibrates complete
    Some, we get a sound so sweet
    Vibrations reach on up to become light
    And then through gamma, out of sight

    Between the eyes and ears there lie
    The sounds of colour and the light of a sigh
    And to hear the sun, what a thing to believe
    But it's all around if we could but perceive

    To know ultraviolet, infrared and X-rays
    Beauty to find in so many ways
    Two notes of the chord, that's our full scope
    But to reach the chord is our life's hope
    And to name the chord is important to some
    So they give a word, and the word is...

OM

    OM

    The rain is on the roof
    Hurry high, butterfly
    As clouds roll past my head
    I know why the skies all cry

    OM
    OM
    Heaven
    OM

    The Earth turns slowly round
    Far away the distant sound
    Is with us everyday
    Can you hear what it says?

    OM
    OM
    Heaven
    OM

    The rain is on the roof
    Hurry high, butterfly
    As clouds roll past my head
    I know why the skies all cry

    OM
    OM
    Heaven
    OM

(Lyrics by Mike Pinder)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 08:29:50 PM by Tommy Naccarato »
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pine Valley #2
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2007, 08:28:49 PM »
Michael, Michael, Michael...

You've got the magic wand now...what is your ideal presentation of trees at Pine Valley?
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