Raynor Standards @ Dedham - Short, Alps, Redan, Punchbowl

[Mike Sweeney]

http://newenglandgreenkeeper.com/raynorstandards.aspx

Interesting website by:

Michael W. Stachowicz
Grounds Manager
Dedham Country and Polo Club
124 Country Club Road
Dedham, Massachusetts  02026

[scott_wood]

Mike, Many THANKS for this posting, especially because I won 4 greens fees to Dedham in Steve Curry's Sup't raffle, adn hope to visit in Sept/Oct.....but  
Mike "forgot" to include a picture of the downhill redan @ Mountain Lake!!!!

[Thomas_Brown]

Entertaining slide show presentation.
As much as I like Shinny, NGLA's redan is still #1.
Mountain Lake's may even be better than Shinny's version.

[Eric Franzen]

http://newenglandgreenkeeper.com/archtiecturearticles.aspx

A cool link archive where you'll find a bunch of articles that they have collected to help in the management and direction of a Seth Raynor designed course

[TEPaul]

"Raynor Standards @ Dedham - Short, Alps, Redan, Punchbowl"

Where Raynor (or Macdonald) got their ideas for various holes here and there is a subject so interesting and as more and more people beat the bushes and search in nooks and crannies more and more written and photographic info is coming in on this subject.

For instance, did you know that Raynor said that the idea of the great punchbowl 6th green at The Creek (1923) New York came from his original 15th green (long gone now) at Mountain Lake (1915) in Florida?

This came out of an old Town and Country magazine that came up on eBay in the last few months that had an informative article by Whigam on The Creek Club just after it opened.

In that article Whigam also described the inspiration for the funny little "sea-side" 10th hole at The Creek.

He said it was a take-off on NGLA's 17th (Leven?) only Raynor thought it was even better because of its basic of its positioning almost on the beach and its direction in relation to the sun.

I just didn't get that at all. I couldn't see much similarity with those two holes.

I'll probably get in some hot water for mentioning this today instead of a month or two from now but a few days ago unexpectedly out of left field The Creek got this letter containing an old article with photos from a guy who for years and years had this 1924 article on The Creek from a LI horse magazine called "Spur".

I sure do see now why Whigam and Raynor called The Creek's 10th a rendition of NGLA's 17th hole.  

[TEPaul]

By the way, Patrick, you opinionated putz, that old 1924 "Spur" horse magazine article also had a 1924 on-ground photo of the 5th green and there was no way, no how that green was originally a "skyline". It had a line of pretty mature trees behind it.

How does it feel to be wrong 97% of the time?  

[Brad Tufts]

Michael Moore and I had the great fortune to play Dedham this past Saturday afternoon (successfully danced around the raindrops).

I thought the course was unique in the Boston classic-course arena in the same way Myopia and TCC are, as they all fall outside the Ross umbrella.

There are numerous "Raynor-esque" features at Dedham, the deep, angled bunkering, several template greens, but it seemed through our host's explanations that the course has changed a great deal from what it once was, be it the early Ross course, or the later Raynor course.

The club has recently gotten on the "restoration" bandwagon, commencing with a tree removal program, looking at aerial photographs, and planning to sympathetically return the course to former plans.

The course is short by modern standards, but is defended heavily by small, elevated greens, small deep greenside bunkering, and thick rough.  Highlights included several greens that are integrated with their surrounds so as to continue a shoulder of a mound, or rock outcropping, or rise.

My favorite hole was number 3, a 200-yard par 3 named Redan.  While not a Redan in the true sense, the green does slope right to left, and front to back.  The green is blind (although one can see the pin), and the tee shot should be hit out to the right over several bunkers in order to catch the sideslope and run to the green.  These bunkers also appear to be close to the green, when they are 50 yards short.  Add a sea of fescue for the first 120 yards that comprises most of the view, and you have a wonderful hole.

[SPDB]

By the way, Patrick, you opinionated putz, that old 1924 "Spur" horse magazine article also had a 1924 on-ground photo of the 5th green and there was no way, no how that green was originally a "skyline". It had a line of pretty mature trees behind it.

How does it feel to be wrong 97% of the time?  

TEPaul - That is great news indeed. Years ago Pat claimed the 5th was a skyline green. I disputed his claim, saying that the only way it could possibly be a skyline green was if you were playing your second shot from the tennis courts. He blustered. I asked him if he'd care to put his money where his mouth was. Foolishly, he did.  

When, on subsequent visits, he realized his error, the terms of the bet gradually morphed and Pat was claiming victory based on the unsubstantiated claim that CB Macdonald intended a skyline. Nevermind that wasn't the bet.

Now it seems even that claim is hooey. I win (again).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

From what angle is the photo taken ?

From the left side of the hole it's clearly a skyline green.

SBerry,

When The Creek opened in 1923, 84 years ago, I wouldn't think that the trees behind and to the left of the green and service road rose above the horizon, which was created by the view from the fairway DZ to the green, as seen in Craig Disher's picture, which is taken from the RIGHT side of the hole.

If you hit your tee shot into the left fairway bunker, or, long and to the left of it, what view would you have ?   A Skyline green ?

[SPDB]

Pat - No. Your obstinance all these years in the face of overwhelming evidence contradicting you is amazing.

First of all, Craig Disher's photo is taken from the tee, not the right side of the hole. If anything that supports my position.

I've said it before, the only way the 5th green becomes a skyline is if you are playing from the tennis courts, which I didn't think were in the parameters of our bet. But then again the parameters of our bet have never really hindered you.

Our bet was whether the 5th was a skyline green. I said it was not, you said it was. When it became clear to you that you were wrong, you started adding all these qualifiers

"CB Mac designed it as a skyline green." Notwithstanding the presumption of this outrageous claim, it still wasn't our bet.

"If you play from the extreme left rough it is a skyline green"  Still false, but, again, irrelevant to our bet.

"If you get on your knees on the bank of the left side of the green, it has a skyline effect"
"There's a corridor of vision from Lattingtown Road that makes it appear a skyline green"
"If you drink 10 Southsides, each with a Myers floater, the trees behind 5 Green magically disappear revealing a skyline green"

And so on and and so on the squirming continues...
Craig's photo is enough to show that a skyline green does not exist at the Creek, which was our bet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - No. Your obstinance all these years in the face of overwhelming evidence contradicting you is amazing.

Thank you[/color]

First of all, Craig Disher's photo is taken from the tee, not the right side of the hole.

That's not accurate.
The tee is offset to the right to begin with, and, as you can see, it's from the right side of the tee, to the right of the walking path that bisects the tee.[/color]

If anything that supports my position.

I don't believe that it does.[/color]

I've said it before, the only way the 5th green becomes a skyline is if you are playing from the tennis courts, which I didn't think were in the parameters of our bet.

No need to go to the tennis courts, just look at the green from the leftside fairway bunker or the fairway beyond and left of the bunker, or the left rough.

Having played there last Thursday, it looked like a Skyline green to me.

As to the tennis courts, there were some attractive features on them, but, they weren't golf course related.[/color]

But then again the parameters of our bet have never really hindered you.

You're right, I'm not willing to accept views from the entrance road as the sole determinate.[/color]

Our bet was whether the 5th was a skyline green. I said it was not, you said it was. When it became clear to you that you were wrong, you started adding all these qualifiers

What qualifiers, look at the  green from the left side fairway bunker, the fairway beyond and left of that bunker and from the right rough.   We never contexted the issue in a 360 degree perspective.[/color]

"CB Mac designed it as a skyline green." Notwithstanding the presumption of this outrageous claim, it still wasn't our bet.

"If you play from the extreme left rough it is a skyline green"  Still false, but, again, irrelevant to our bet.

"If you get on your knees on the bank of the left side of the green, it has a skyline effect"

"There's a corridor of vision from Lattingtown Road that makes it appear a skyline green"

"If you drink 10 Southsides, each with a Myers floater, the trees behind 5 Green magically disappear revealing a skyline green"

And so on and and so on the squirming continues...

Craig's photo is enough to show that a skyline green does not exist at the Creek, which was our bet.

Craig's photo from the right side of the hole doesn't disqualify the 5th green as a skyline green.

Why haven't you answered the questions about the view from the leftside fairway bunker.  Could it be that it's clearly a skyline green from that side ?[/color]

[SPDB]

Pat - No. Your obstinance all these years in the face of overwhelming evidence contradicting you is amazing.

Thank you[/color]

First of all, Craig Disher's photo is taken from the tee, not the right side of the hole.

That's not accurate.
The tee is offset to the right to begin with, and, as you can see, it's from the right side of the tee, to the right of the walking path that bisects the tee.[/color]

If anything that supports my position.

I don't believe that it does.[/color]

Yes it does. You've neglected to note that the entire movement of the hole (and the orientation of the green) is to the left, toward the stand of trees that prevents it from being a skyline.

I've said it before, the only way the 5th green becomes a skyline is if you are playing from the tennis courts, which I didn't think were in the parameters of our bet.

No need to go to the tennis courts, just look at the green from the leftside fairway bunker or the fairway beyond and left of the bunker, or the left rough.

Having played there last Thursday, it looked like a Skyline green to me.

Did you play with your seeing eye dog?

As to the tennis courts, there were some attractive features on them, but, they weren't golf course related.[/color]

But then again the parameters of our bet have never really hindered you.

You're right, I'm not willing to accept views from the entrance road as the sole determinate.[/color]

Our bet was whether the 5th was a skyline green. I said it was not, you said it was. When it became clear to you that you were wrong, you started adding all these qualifiers

What qualifiers, look at the  green from the left side fairway bunker, the fairway beyond and left of that bunker and from the right rough.   We never contexted the issue in a 360 degree perspective.[/color]

"CB Mac designed it as a skyline green." Notwithstanding the presumption of this outrageous claim, it still wasn't our bet.

"If you play from the extreme left rough it is a skyline green"  Still false, but, again, irrelevant to our bet.

"If you get on your knees on the bank of the left side of the green, it has a skyline effect"

"There's a corridor of vision from Lattingtown Road that makes it appear a skyline green"

"If you drink 10 Southsides, each with a Myers floater, the trees behind 5 Green magically disappear revealing a skyline green"

And so on and and so on the squirming continues...

Craig's photo is enough to show that a skyline green does not exist at the Creek, which was our bet.

Craig's photo from the right side of the hole doesn't disqualify the 5th green as a skyline green.

Why haven't you answered the questions about the view from the leftside fairway bunker.  Could it be that it's clearly a skyline green from that side ?[/color]

[/color]I apologize for the oversight. The view from that bunker would show a green framed behind by trees. You can see that from Craig's picture.

How are you also neglecting the large tree to the right that shields the 6th tee?

[TEPaul]

"When The Creek opened in 1923, 84 years ago, I wouldn't think that the trees behind and to the left of the green and service road rose above the horizon".

Pat:

Perhaps you didn't realize before The Creek Club was a golf course it was the very mature massive English "Park" type estate of New York super lawyer and super rich Paul Cravath. There were more trees behind that green in 1924 than there are now. Before the course there was a formal walk that went from the mansion that was app where the clubhouse is now (but much bigger) to a formal garden app. where the tennis courts are now to the left of the 5th green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SBerry,

When was that tree planted, pre or post 1923.

TEPaul,

The land falls off precipitously behind the 5th green and in front of the 6th tee.

Any garden and trees near the 5th green would have had to make way for the 5th fairway and surrounds.

[Jeff Doerr]

Mike,

Thanks for sharing the link. I hope the members appreciate having a super who has such a reverence for GCA and history.

The slideshows and articles were a treat.

[wsmorrison]

An early 1930s photo of the 5th green at Creek Club:

[SPDB]

SBerry,

When was that tree planted, pre or post 1923.

I don't know. But the date of its planting has absolutely no relevance to our bet.

[wsmorrison]

Those are mature trees behind the 5th green and were present long before the course opened.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

As anyone can clearly see from that early photo posted above the 5th green was not a skyline green. The entire rear of the green is framed by a treeline. It doesn't really even matter on which side of the fairway one was standing. And don't use some weak reasoning like the ground drops off precipitously immediately behind the green. We all know what that ground looks like behind that green.

Try not to waste more of anyone's time on here or your credibility by claiming otherwise, it's not worth it.

The fact is you're wrong about 97% of the time. Just live with it because there doesn't seem to be any possibility of improving on it anyway.

I've been trying to educate you for years now and nobody can educate most people better than I can. With you, though, unfortunately I have to make an exception.  

Just pay SBerry the bet he won from you and move on, will you please?

Do you want to be known on here as both muddle-headed AND a total sleeze-ball welsher on your bets like The Donald?  

[wsmorrison]

My research underling (GH) just informed me that the photo I posted (courtesy of said underling) is from a horse journal "Spur" and is dated July 1924, around the time the course opened for play.  

[TEPaul]

Right. Your research underling who does 99.7% of the heavy lifting on research on The Creek. He does all this and noone seems to give him an iota of credit for it. He has now taken to accusing me of doing little more than eating chinese food and passing out twenty minutes later from monosodium glutimate overload. The only positive thing I can think to say is we may be crazy but George is definitely crazier. When the secretaries up in the office upstairs see him coming they roll their eyes and announce then need to take a lunch break even if it's 8am in the morning. The last time I saw him he was flat on his back in the basement of The Creek under the furnace and with soot all over him reaching around in the dark trying to see if he could find any more old drawings.

[Dan_Callahan]

Why don't you guys take your pissing match about the Creek and post it on a Creek thread.

Mike, Dedham is one of those courses I could envision playing every day and never getting tired of it. There are so many choices to make just in the first few holes. The creeks on 1 and 2 force a decision to either lay up safe or take a risk that will result in a short approach to an uphill green (significantly uphill in the case of the 2nd). The 4th is very reachable but shortening the hole by hugging the right side brings all sorts of trouble into play.

It's too bad they got into a routing jam on the 17th, which is otherwise a very strong par 3. I don't love the 18th, but the second shot is one of the most demanding on the course.

All in all, Dedham is a course that gets surprisingly little recognition.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

Wow, I was wondering the hits on my page had gone up so much.  Not only that, but each visitor had alot of page views.  It has been great to be the host to so many people who "get it".

Dan,
Thanks for your comments.  It is funny you should mention the log jam that is 17 and 18, because it doesn't even slightly bother me or any of the members.  It would be unheard of nowadays to have a par 3 you basically have to play and walk back to the same tee to play 18, but it works.  It was the best use of the land.

Brad,
Thanks for your take on your round at Dedham, what you have mentioned is what we have been going for.  I am a little bummed that two guys I know from this site (you wouldn't know me because I don't post that often, but read everyday) played my course I didn't get a chance to meet them.  

Your assessment of the third is right on and what we trying to do with the green expansions and tree work is incorporate all the rugged naturalness of the property into the course.

Jeff,  Thanks, the site has been well received.  Most members have now way to become exposed to the history of the course, unless they hear me speak or serve on a committee.  The website has also been good to communicate all the accomplishments of the past few years and the to lay the groundwork for the future.  Much of the work we have been doing is decidedly not sexy...drainage mostly...and it is easily forgotten.  Also, many managerial and operation changes are entirely lost of members who are not on my committee, so this is just a way to expose them to those type of changes.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

Entertaining slide show presentation.
As much as I like Shinny, NGLA's redan is still #1.
Mountain Lake's may even be better than Shinny's version.

NGLA's is the best as it seems to defy gravity, but Mountain Lakes (which is on the Mountain Lake slideshow) is easily the most user friendly as it allows a bogey golfer like me to execute the most thrilling shot is golf correctly 3 out of 5 times.  I know this is sacrilegious, but I have yet to execute the proper shot on the redans at Yeaman's. Fishers, or Yale.  Lookout Mountain is also user friendly...or is that remedial.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Those are mature trees behind the 5th green and were present long before the course opened.

Wayne & TEPaul,

Those trees aren't behind the green, they're to the left of it.

TEPaul,

If you understood angles you would know that that picture is taken from the far right side and shows the area left of the green, not behind it.

The same picture taken from the same spot on the left side would show nothing behind the green.

Gotta go, I'll be back next week