Holes that share ground?

[TEPaul]

On a course that I've become involved with as a consultant it has always occured to me that the routing would be better or best if a few holes shared ground somehow.

Obviously, this kind of thing is tricky business in this day and age of liablity etc.

What are some of the best holes in the world that actually share ground in a strategic options sense?

The first that comes to my mind is the 1st and 18th at TOC.  I've never been there so I can only imagine.

What are others that do this well?

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
dont the tees on 14 and 18 at Gulph Mills do the same....

[mike_beene]

I have seen more scary situations on TOC than anywhere else combined(especially since snap hooks are at the players going the other way).Also,pace of play can become an issue.I agree that it pulls the course together.Can you get the same effect from something like the church pews that affect more than one hole.At least 1 and 10 at inverness go same way.Of course,Inverness didn't want Lon Hinckle to share features.13 and 16 at Southern Hills feel shared at the green

[Mike_Cirba]

There's some conjoined fairways at Rustic Canyon on the front nine, and I know I've seen Hurdzan/Fry do it pretty well somewhere but my memory isn't working at present.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kingsbarns has 3 pairs of holes that share small sections of connected fairways. 1 & 18, 6 & 17 and 7 & 16.

[TEPaul]

Mike Beene:

I think you're right that holes that go the same way can do this better. I'm trying to figure out if it's better if they share an LZ distance-wise or not. Whatever they do share I don't think it could ever be ground on the primary LZ of either hole.

MikeC:

That would be #12 and #14 at Fieldstone, I think, and it's shared fairway even though few would hit the ball there other than a real slice. It's just that the fairways are melded in that area probably more for a look than anything else.

MikeY:

That would be the 11th and 18th tees at GMGC. In the last few years each hole has been using the others tees just to add distance to the tips, as they go in opposite directions.

[wsmorrison]

These aren't particularly good examples, but at Shinnecock Hills the 1st and 9th and the 9th and 18th fairways are slightly conjoined with shared fairway bunkers.  The shared bunkers between 1 and 9 only come into play as a result of sliced tee shots since they go in opposite directions.  The 9th and 18th go in the same direction.  Their shared bunkers come into play on a hooked second shot on 9 and a sliced second shot on 18 (out of the rough since the bunkers are well short of the green).  Decades ago the 9th green was fronted by fairway that draped down the slope below the green.  Approach shots that spun off the green or short approaches would travel down the slope to the left and into the shared bunkers.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

If you ask me I'd say those shared fairway areas on the 9th and 18th holes at Shinnecock are, and probably always have been, there more for the convenience of getting mowing equipment between those two holes than anything else.

[wsmorrison]

I agree with you, Tom.  While they weren't conjoined in a late 1938 aerial, it probably didn't take long to figure it out that it would be more convenient to do so.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I don't know about that---eg those two fairways may've always been joined right there. The 1938 aerial isn't easy to tell that from but that kind of fairway connection looks to me like one done for the benefit of those old much wider and far less maneuverable gang mowers.

Show it to Matt Shaeffer. Those "swaths" and fairway patterns from the old days he seems to think are a result of moving the big gangs from here to there. That's something he seems really interested in from those old aerials.

Furthermore, just think about the way it must have been. Maintenance likes to mow in various sections of a course as easily as possible. It's not necessarily a matter of them just going from #1 on through the sequence of the course the way golfers play it. If that fairway connection was not there in the old days how do you think they would get the big gangs from #9 to #18 or vice versa? They might have needed to take them onto some of those old dirt roads that've always been there and halfway around the course to get to a fairway right next to another one. Think of the way we ride around there when we're looking at the course. It's not that easy getting from #9 to #18 if that connection wasn't there.

On the other hand, that logistical problem at many of the old golf courses may be the real reason most of those old courses did not have anywhere near as much acreage and area of really high seasonal fescue the way they do today that only gets mowed down once a year.

[Brad Klein]

Interestingly, the original Ross design of Evanston (Ill.) golf club had two sections with shared fairways whereby par-3s were "paired " with par-4s:

4/5 in opposite directions and 11/12 at right angle.

1/18 at Chambers Bay overlap landing areas in opposite direction

My favorite of all are Ross' parallel long par-4s at Kennett Square (Pa.) G&CC, where the 8th and 17th start from the side wide teeing block, travel hand in hand down the same 140-yard wide corridor (separated by rough), and meet again at side-by-side twin greens.  

[TEPaul]

The real reason I'm asking this question is that, in my opinion, at this site I'm thinking of, if this kind of idea cannot be done and done well enough in a few places the course might inherit some routing and hole concept problems.

[Paul_Turner]

10 holes at Painswick!

[BCrosby]

Mike Young has done it at the 10th and the 11th at Longshadow. Also maybe the 18th. A triple wide fw, if Mike can get them to cut some of the tall grass and smooth out some mounds between those fw's.

I have always thought the liability issue is overblown. It's a pretext for insurance companies to jack up rates. There are very, very few cases where architects or operators have been found liable for "design" negligence. Given normal corridor widths, if those corridors merge at their edges with other corridors - think TOC - you are going to have a tough time recovering damages for an errant ball that hit you. When you play golf, you assume that risk.

Bob  

[Dan Boerger]

The 15th tee at Merion East is in the 16th Fairway. Also, I believe the 4th tee goes over the 3rd green at Ballybunion.  

[Patrick Glynn]

Lahinch!

The Klondyke & Dell get crossed over by the 18th. Back Tee at 7 hits over the 6th Green. The Old 14th & 15th shared a 70 yard wide fairway...

[G Jones]

I was just going to mention Merion.

Panmure in scotland has a nicely shared 6th and 7th fairway which looks like a butterfly from above and has a bunker at each end of the join.

North Berwick west is like st andrews with a joint 1st and 18th field style fairway.

[Jon Spaulding]

MacKenzie's crossover holes @ Claremont CC in Oakland, CA are quite interesting. I can't imagine anyone doing this with today's litigious environment.

[wsmorrison]

To expand on Dan's remark about the 15th tee and the 16th fairway, the tee is on the alternate 16th fairway route along the right side of the hole; the so-called "Ladies Aid."  The carry to clear the quarry from the 16th fairway is a minimum of 100 yards uphill to the green.  Many ladies play around the quarry on the right with the fairway tied into the 15th tee, which is now about 80 yards from forward tee to the rearmost tee position.

[Mark Hissey]

3, 2 and 18 at Sebonack.

6 and 9 also.

I've played the 18th down the 2nd fairway on a number of occasions. As a matter of fact, I'd recommend it.  

[Paul_Turner]

4th,5th and 6th at Royal Worlington and Newmarket.  See Ran's review.

[Brad Klein]

Mark,

do you have to declare your intention on Sebonack's 18th  beforehand?

[gookin]

At Inverness 1 and 10 are side by side. I would not say they share the same playing area, but I did get the feeling of being "connected".

[Mark Hissey]

Mark,

do you have to declare your intention on Sebonack's 18th  beforehand?

As you well know Brad, my route will always be accidental due to the atrotious state of my game.  

[paul cowley]

Mark,

do you have to declare your intention on Sebonack's 18th  beforehand?

As you well know Brad, my route will always be accidental due to the atrotious state of my game.  

...funny guys...