[Andy Troeger]

At a Charity outing I played in last week at The Creek, the winning NET SCORE in a best ball of the foursome was 48.

Patrick,
That is as good of an example as anything as to why I do not play in NET tournaments either...48?

[Doug Siebert]

Brent,

Why are you confining the challenge to stroke play ?

Aren't golfers challenged when they play match play ?

Aren't golfers challenged when they just go out and play a round by themselves ?

Patrick,

At the start of the thread Michael Whitaker said that less than 10% of his state association's members ever play in any organized stroke play event, and questioned why golfers don't want their games tested in that manner.

Now you seem to be redefining the question as whether golfers want to be tested at all.  There is a big difference between having your game tested, and having testing it defined as playing in an organized stroke play event.  There probably are a lot of golfers who don't want to be tested at all.  These are the guys who load up their cart with 12 cans of beer, and expect to refill it with 12 more cans at the turn.  It is just a day outdoors away from work and the family for them, not much different from guys who go fishing with a bunch of beer and don't really care if they actually catch anything or not.

I've never played in an organized stroke play event, but I LOVE testing my game.  Testing my game, by my definition, involves testing it against the course.  I see what challenges the course offers that I can defeat, and which I cannot.  When I return to the course I hope to reinforce or improve on the challenges I've already overcome and try again or seek alternate strategies to defeat those challenges I previously failed at.  Of course it is frustrating on the days when I'm not playing well at all, because its not really possible to give oneself a fair test when you don't know whether you'll hit a snap hook at any given moment, but that's something you have to live with when your name's not Eldrick.

To take your example from a few posts back, if you invited me to GCGC I'd undoubtedly enjoy the challenge your course offers.  I'd want to go back, because I'm sure some of its challenges would perplex me and a poor shot here and there would render some null and void (i.e., if I drive into a bad spot on some hole and have to lay up, the challenge of a long approach to a small green is rendered moot for me on that occasion)  Any golfer who appreciates the challenge a good course can offer would feel similarly.


Back to Michael's original question, just to give him an answer here...  The lowest my handicap has ever been is 4, so I'm not good enough to compete in scratch events, and I've never had any real desire to compete in handicapped events because 1) the odds are stacked against low handicaps and 2) the odds are even worse when you consider there will be some sandbaggers out there.  I maintain a handicap simply as a method of tracking how well I play.  The handicap system isn't perfect, but it is the standard in the US so I figure its good enough.  Its also useful when I travel to the UK and want to play off the back tees at Troon

[Andy Hughes]

In any case, if the 70,000 number is correct there are 175,000 golfers in SC.
The 5500 individuals who participated in the SCGA's events represent only 7.9% of their total membership of 70,000.

Michael, thanks. I am a little surprised that you'd have so many members who don't participate in any of the SCGA's events. But I am not surprised so few play in scratch events--how many people really have any chance?

(PS I brought my group to True Blue back in April and to a man they loved it...wonder what they would have thought a few years ago)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick....

You lost your side with me.

"At a Charity outing I played in last week at The Creek, the winning NET SCORE in a best ball of the foursome was 48."

This was not a tournament with verified, real handicaps.

How can you say that ?

Golfers are required to provide their GHIN #
That allows the Pro to verify handicaps prior to play.[/color]

Nor was it a real test.

Since when is The Creek, with a good breeze, not a test ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael, any guesstimate what percentage of the golfers in SC carry 'real' handicaps?

[size=4x]

The SC Golf Association has around 70,000 individual members, [/size]

from about 55,000 households. These individuals represent 250-300 member clubs. The SCGA had ~5,500 individual members participate in their 2006 season of tournaments... this included all of the association's events: 76 One-Day handicap tournaments (senior & regular), 8 USGA Qualifiers, 18 Statewide Championships, 7 "40-Plus" Events and 5 Special Events.

Aren't the participating fields extremely limited for those events ?

If the field was 140 for each event, the number of competitors would be limited to only 15,960 golfers per year, or 22 % of the 70,000 registered golfers.

When you apply the tournment restrictions, the numbers get skewed in my favor

The great majority of golfers are ineligible for championships because they don't meet the minimum handicap requirement.
Yet, you include them as if they had a choice in entering the competitions, which they don't.[/color]

The National Golf Foundation and the Carolinas Golf Association estimate that only 40% or so of all golfers in SC are members of the SCGA and maintain a handicap through that association.

Depends what you classify as a golfer.
I classify a "golfer" as one who maintains a handicap, not someone who plays once in a blue moon.[/color]

I'm fairly confident that they consider a "golfer" someone who plays at least six times a year, but I would have to look that up to be absolutely sure.

That would be helpful, as the definition of what constitutes a golfer may be a nebulous reference to someone who rarely plays.

My view of a "golfer" is someone who maintains a handicap.[/color]

In any case, if the 70,000 number is correct there are 175,000 golfers in SC.

The only number you can accurately quantify is the 70,000 registered golfers in SC.[/color]

The 5500 individuals who participated in the SCGA's events represent only 7.9% of their total membership of 70,000.

You're leaving out some important qualifiers.
Such as handicap limits, age limits, gender limits, field limits and tournament limits,
AND you're ONLY referencing SCGCA tournaments, totally ignoring the abundance of tournaments played at the local level throughout the year.

Of those 70,000 I'll guarantee you that most of them play in medal play events at their local clubs during the year.

Using your logic, you could cite the USGA and tell us how many "registered" golfers play in their events during a year, and then indicate that number as a percentile, if you wanted to really misrepresent your misrepresentation.  

Your premis, presentation and conclusion is flawed[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

At the start of the thread Michael Whitaker said that less than 10% of his state association's members ever play in any organized stroke play event, and questioned why golfers don't want their games tested in that manner.

I contend that Michael's numbers are all wet.
See my above post for the reasons why[/color]

Now you seem to be redefining the question as whether golfers want to be tested at all.  

Not at all.[/color]

There is a big difference between having your game tested, and having testing it defined as playing in an organized stroke play event.  

No there's not.
Testing is a matter of relativity.
You know as well as anyone else that a 24 handicap can't enter the State Amateur or State Open.
But, they can enter their local club's medal play, net tournaments, and they do.  And, there game is tested.[/color]

There probably are a lot of golfers who don't want to be tested at all.  

Then why would they pay to have their handicap established ?[/color]

These are the guys who load up their cart with 12 cans of beer, and expect to refill it with 12 more cans at the turn.  

I've played a lot of golf in my life, and only ONCE did I run into a golfer who fueled up as you describe above.
Let's stop the myth and nonsense.
A club that served a case of beer to a golfer would run a serious liability risk for anything that happened on the golf course and on the drive home.
The golfer you reference wouldn't be able to walk or drive, much less PLAY golf, so, let's get off the fabricated extremes.[/color]

It is just a day outdoors away from work and the family for them, not much different from guys who go fishing with a bunch of beer and don't really care if they actually catch anything or not.

Right, the guy's going to consume a case of beer and play golf, a game that requires incredible hand-eye co-ordination, depth perception, power and finesse.  

That's not a golfer, that's an alcoholic[/color]

I've never played in an organized stroke play event, but I LOVE testing my game.  Testing my game, by my definition, involves testing it against the course.  

I referenced that earlier[/color]

I see what challenges the course offers that I can defeat, and which I cannot.  When I return to the course I hope to reinforce or improve on the challenges I've already overcome and try again or seek alternate strategies to defeat those challenges I previously failed at.  Of course it is frustrating on the days when I'm not playing well at all, because its not really possible to give oneself a fair test when you don't know whether you'll hit a snap hook at any given moment, but that's something you have to live with when your name's not Eldrick.

Agreed, some days you have it, some days you don't, but,  you never know which is which until you go out and test your game against the course, yourself, your opponent or the field.[/color]

To take your example from a few posts back, if you invited me to GCGC I'd undoubtedly enjoy the challenge your course offers.  I'd want to go back, because I'm sure some of its challenges would perplex me and a poor shot here and there would render some null and void (i.e., if I drive into a bad spot on some hole and have to lay up, the challenge of a long approach to a small green is rendered moot for me on that occasion)  Any golfer who appreciates the challenge a good course can offer would feel similarly.

Agreed, that's the lure, the challenge, the test.

Back to Michael's original question, just to give him an answer here...  The lowest my handicap has ever been is 4, so I'm not good enough to compete in scratch events,

Why wouldn't you want to test your game against better players.

Think of the joy of beating a 0 handicap

Some of my most memorable matches have been against golfers who were clearly better players than me, yet, I prevailed.

I'd rather play against golfers who are better than me versus golfers who are worse than me.  Who would you prefer to compete against ?[/color]

and I've never had any real desire to compete in handicapped events because 1) the odds are stacked against low handicaps

I disgree with that.
Handicaps are determined by taking the ten lowest of the last twenty scores, thus, a handicap is skewed toward each golfers "better" game.  If you took the lowest 20 of the last 20 handicaps would jump.  A lower handicap has narrower margins, thus, he's at an advantage when competing against higher handicaps, especially if conditions are unusual.[/color]

and 2) the odds are even worse when you consider there will be some sandbaggers out there.  

That's another issue, and a difficult issue to police.
The local club where the sandbagger's handicap is established bears part of the responsibility for that practice.[/color]

I maintain a handicap simply as a method of tracking how well I play.  The handicap system isn't perfect, but it is the standard in the US so I figure its good enough.  Its also useful when I travel to the UK and want to play off the back tees at Troon

I agree, a handicap allows us to compete against ourselves, fellow competitors and the golf course, it's one of the assets of the game, in that golfers of diverse abilities can compete on an equal footing with one another.  It's part of what makes this game so great.[/color]

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
Do you really believe that more than maybe a handful of players not eligible because of their handicap for the USGA or state tournaments would fork over the money to play in them? I'm sure a few would at least once in awhile, but lets not pretend they are banging down the doors to get into these events.

For that matter, I'd be skeptical that most amateur events turn away that many players that would like to enter. I'm sure it varies from state to state, but most of the state level tournaments I'm familiar with end up with the same group of players, and its not because no one else can get in.

I'm afraid that if you think all avid golfers have a handicap and turn in all their scores, that it might be you that's all wet. I would guess that maybe a third of the people I play with, all of whom play at least 20-30 times a year, don't bother with handicaps. You may play with a different group, but its worth realizing that not everyone follows that ideal.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Do you really believe that more than maybe a handful of players not eligible because of their handicap for the USGA or state tournaments would fork over the money to play in them?

The answer to that question is directly related to the quality or notoriety of the venue.

What's the threshold ?  $ 25, $ 50, $ 100 ? ? ?[/color]

I'm sure a few would at least once in awhile, but lets not pretend they are banging down the doors to get into these events.

They can't bang down the doors because they're inelligible.
But, if it was a net tournament and held at good courses you can bet that they'd flock to the event, even though only 140 or so would be able to play.[/color]

For that matter, I'd be skeptical that most amateur events turn away that many players that would like to enter.

I can tell you, unequivically, that the MGA and NJSGA closes their fields when a certain number of entrants register.
You can only fit so many golfers on a golf course, and, fewer and fewer quality courses are willing to give up the use of their course for the entire day, for several days.[/color]

I'm sure it varies from state to state, but most of the state level tournaments I'm familiar with end up with the same group of players, and its not because no one else can get in.

Be specific, what State has the same players every year in their State Championships ?

And, what's the exemption policy for that tournament ?

Some tournaments grant exemptions to the top 25 and ties, etc. etc..[/color]

I'm afraid that if you think all avid golfers have a handicap and turn in all their scores, that it might be you that's all wet.

I'd say that the great, great majority of avid golfers have handicaps.

As to turning in their scores, you've added an unsubstantiated act that has nothing to do with the issue.[/color]

I would guess that maybe a third of the people I play with, all of whom play at least 20-30 times a year, don't bother with handicaps.

How do they compete with you and each other if they don't bother to have handicaps ?

You state that 1/3 of all the people you play with play 30 times a year, which is alot, and yet, they don't have handicaps.   I have a hard time believing that you're not exagerating.

And, If they're not turning in their scores, well, you know what that usually means[/color]

You may play with a different group, but its worth realizing that not everyone follows that ideal.

Trust me, very few people could play with the group I play with, and it's got nothing to do with their level of play.

Only scores shot in our game count for handicap purposes amongst ourselves.  We don't care what you score when you play with your wife, alone or socially, we only care what you score when you play in our group.

And, we don't play gimmees, everything must be holed out.

And, we play two matches, low ball and a high ball, just to make sure everyone stays in the game.

We have had handicaps ranging from the low 20's to 0.

Some who enter our game, leave shortly thereafter, realizing that their handicap is an ego handicap, or, they're not used to putting out 1 and 2 footers when it counts.

No Mulligans.

But, unlimited lip-iron is permited and the only subject declared off limits is children and grandchildren.  Nothing else is sacred.

As Rodney said, "it's a tough group"[/color]

[Michael Whitaker]

Q:  What percentage of today's golfers maintain a handicap?
 
A:  Twenty-one percent of all golfers maintain a handicap (2004 data). The average handicap (among those who maintain one) is 15 for men, 23 for women, and 16 overall. (2006 figures will be released mid-2007.)

Source:  National Golf Foundation
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Q:  What percentage of today's golfers maintain a handicap?

Please provide their defiintion of what constitutes a "golfer"[/color]
 
A:  Twenty-one percent of all golfers maintain a handicap (2004 data). The average handicap (among those who maintain one) is 15 for men, 23 for women, and 16 overall. (2006 figures will be released mid-2007.)

Define "golfers"

Let's use Andy's criteria, "Golfers defined as those who play 30 rounds a year"

What perentage of them don't have handicaps ?[/color]

Source:  National Golf Foundation
 

[Andy Troeger]

Pat,

Turning in scores is absolutely crucial to having a handicap. They don't do much good if they aren't accurate. Unfortunately, from my experience at least 50% of people's handicaps are either vanity handicaps or sandbaggers.

I admire your groups way of doing handicaps. If you are going to compete and have a system that's about the only way to do it in a truly fair way. Its the kind of golf that I've ceased to enjoy, but I've kind of been there/done that with tournament golf I guess.

"How do they compete with you and each other if they don't bother to have handicaps ?"

I don't know how to say it any more clearly than I already have, but I don't care if I compete against them. There's more to golf for me than competition against others.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael, any guesstimate what percentage of the golfers in SC carry 'real' handicaps?

[size=4x]

The SC Golf Association has around 70,000 individual members, [/size]

from about 55,000 households. These individuals represent 250-300 member clubs. The SCGA had ~5,500 individual members participate in their 2006 season of tournaments... this included all of the association's events: 76 One-Day handicap tournaments (senior & regular), 8 USGA Qualifiers, 18 Statewide Championships, 7 "40-Plus" Events and 5 Special Events.

Aren't the participating fields extremely limited for those events ?

If the field was 140 for each event, the number of competitors would be limited to only 15,960 golfers per year, or 22 % of the 70,000 registered golfers.

When you apply the tournment restrictions, the numbers get skewed in my favor.

The great majority of golfers are ineligible for championships because they don't meet the minimum handicap requirement.
Yet, you include them as if they had a choice in entering the competitions, which they don't.[/color]

Patrick - The vast majority of the events listed have NO RESTRICTIONS of any kind. Anyone can sign up for the One-Day Tournaments and there are 76 of them each year! There are plenty of events in which in level golfer can play.

By the way, in SC there is a separate association for women's golf (SCWGA), so these numbers are only for men!

The fact of the matter is that most of the tournaments have the same group of people playing over and over. It's not like the SCGA is having to turn away droves of players who are applying to play in their events and can't get in. There are only small number of players who do not get to play in a tournament in which they want to play.

The National Golf Foundation and the Carolinas Golf Association estimate that only 40% or so of all golfers in SC are members of the SCGA and maintain a handicap through that association.

Depends what you classify as a golfer.
I classify a "golfer" as one who maintains a handicap, not someone who plays once in a blue moon.[/color]

I'm fairly confident that they consider a "golfer" someone who plays at least six times a year, but I would have to look that up to be absolutely sure.

That would be helpful, as the definition of what constitutes a golfer may be a nebulous reference to someone who rarely plays.

My view of a "golfer" is someone who maintains a handicap.[/color]

Patrick - It really doesn't matter how YOU classify or define a golfer. You're opinion is just that... your opinion. The National Golf Foundation, USGA, and (in my case) the SCGA are the final word on the subject. But, I'm sure you'll disagree with that as well.

I'm quickly learning that you are just argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

In any case, if the 70,000 number is correct there are 175,000 golfers in SC.

The only number you can accurately quantify is the 70,000 registered golfers in SC.[/color]

The 5500 individuals who participated in the SCGA's events represent only 7.9% of their total membership of 70,000.

You're leaving out some important qualifiers.
Such as handicap limits, age limits, gender limits, field limits and tournament limits,
AND you're ONLY referencing SCGCA tournaments, totally ignoring the abundance of tournaments played at the local level throughout the year.

Of those 70,000 I'll guarantee you that most of them play in medal play events at their local clubs during the year.

Using your logic, you could cite the USGA and tell us how many "registered" golfers play in their events during a year, and then indicate that number as a percentile, if you wanted to really misrepresent your misrepresentation.  

Your premis, presentation and conclusion is flawed[/color]

Patrick - According to the NGF only 21% of golfers have a handicap, which means only 21% of golfers are members of a "club" sanctioned by our state associations. You are dismissing the fact that most golfers do not belong to a club or have a handicap. You may not consider these individuals "golfers," but I think all the public courses in the US would probably disagree with you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy, et. al.,

The challenge of the game is one of its primary lures.

Another lure is the ease of accomodation for individuals with a wide variety of abilities competing with one another on an equal footing.

If 80 % or 90 % of the golfers you and Michael Whittaker reference, don't have handicaps, how can they compete against one another, which is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game, be it for pride or reward, financial or otherwise ?

How can they compete against the golf course ?

How can they seek to improve their play ?

Please don't tell me that they don't keep score, and that they just walk along, looking at the flora and fauna and whistling a happy tune.  That's B.S.

Everyone I know loves to play against others, the golf course or themselves.

Whenever I play with/against Ran, no money will change hands, but, it's one of the most competitive matches I could ever enter and enjoy.

What kind of guys play golf and don't kid their friends and opponents in friendly matches ?

It's the comraderie and competition that makes the game so much fun.

Show me a guy who doesn't keep score and I'll show you a guy who's smoking too much weed.

I've come across a few golfers who don't have handicaps, but, in most cases it's because they don't play enough rounds.

But, playing 30 rounds a year and not having a handicap is beyond belief and counter-intuitive.

[Michael Whitaker]

If 80 % or 90 % of the golfers you and Michael Whittaker reference, don't have handicaps, how can they compete against one another, which is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game, be it for pride or reward, financial or otherwise ?

Why don't you visit your local public course and ask them?

...playing 30 rounds a year and not having a handicap is beyond belief and counter-intuitive.

Patrick - You're are starting to sound like a private club snob. Surely you understand that private club members are in the minority in golf? As stated before... only 21% of golfers have a handicap.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael, any guesstimate what percentage of the golfers in SC carry 'real' handicaps?

[size=4x]

The SC Golf Association has around 70,000 individual members, [/size]

from about 55,000 households. These individuals represent 250-300 member clubs. The SCGA had ~5,500 individual members participate in their 2006 season of tournaments... this included all of the association's events: 76 One-Day handicap tournaments (senior & regular), 8 USGA Qualifiers, 18 Statewide Championships, 7 "40-Plus" Events and 5 Special Events.

Aren't the participating fields extremely limited for those events ?

If the field was 140 for each event, the number of competitors would be limited to only 15,960 golfers per year, or 22 % of the 70,000 registered golfers.

When you apply the tournment restrictions, the numbers get skewed in my favor.

The great majority of golfers are ineligible for championships because they don't meet the minimum handicap requirement.
Yet, you include them as if they had a choice in entering the competitions, which they don't.[/color]

Patrick - The vast majority of the events listed have NO RESTRICTIONS of any kind. Anyone can sign up for the One-Day Tournaments and there are 76 of them each year! There are plenty of events in which in level golfer can play.

By the way, in SC there is a separate association for women's golf (SCWGA), so these numbers are only for men!

The fact of the matter is that most of the tournaments have the same group of people playing over and over. It's not like the SCGA is having to turn away droves of players who are applying to play in their events and can't get in. There are only small number of players who do not get to play in a tournament in which they want to play.

Michael, the golf course can only accomodate 140 or so players.

Surely you saw my calculation that indicated that if you filled every field in every tournament you referenced, that only 15,000 of those 70,000 could play in those events.

And, the USGA has strict handicap limits for their tournaments.  Please don't tell me that they're open to all golfers.[/color]

The National Golf Foundation and the Carolinas Golf Association estimate that only 40% or so of all golfers in SC are members of the SCGA and maintain a handicap through that association.

Depends what you classify as a golfer.
I classify a "golfer" as one who maintains a handicap, not someone who plays once in a blue moon.[/color]

I'm fairly confident that they consider a "golfer" someone who plays at least six times a year, but I would have to look that up to be absolutely sure.

That would be helpful, as the definition of what constitutes a golfer may be a nebulous reference to someone who rarely plays.

My view of a "golfer" is someone who maintains a handicap.[/color]

Patrick - It really doesn't matter how YOU classify or define a golfer. You're opinion is just that... your opinion. The National Golf Foundation, USGA, and (in my case) the SCGA are the final word on the subject. But, I'm sure you'll disagree with that as well.

Absolutely.

The USGA has strict handicap and age limits for their championships, thus only a very small percentage of golfers are eligible to compete.

As to the SCGA, I'll check with them to see if they have restrictions similar to the USGA and virtually every other GA with respect to their championships.

You never answered the question.
How does the NGF define a golfer ?
What criteria comprise the assessment ?[/color]


I'm quickly learning that you are just argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Why, because I disagree with you and your categorization of the nebulous term "golfer" which you refuse to define ?[/color]

In any case, if the 70,000 number is correct there are 175,000 golfers in SC.

The only number you can accurately quantify is the 70,000 registered golfers in SC.[/color]

The 5500 individuals who participated in the SCGA's events represent only 7.9% of their total membership of 70,000.

You're leaving out some important qualifiers.
Such as handicap limits, age limits, gender limits, field limits and tournament limits,
AND you're ONLY referencing SCGCA tournaments, totally ignoring the abundance of tournaments played at the local level throughout the year.

Of those 70,000 I'll guarantee you that most of them play in medal play events at their local clubs during the year.

Using your logic, you could cite the USGA and tell us how many "registered" golfers play in their events during a year, and then indicate that number as a percentile, if you wanted to really misrepresent your misrepresentation.  

Your premis, presentation and conclusion is flawed[/color]

Patrick - According to the NGF only 21% of golfers have a handicap, which means only 21% of golfers are members of a "club" sanctioned by our state associations.



What's the NGF's definition of a "golfer" ?

Use the 30 rounds per year qualifier

If only 21 % of "golfers" have handicaps, then, how do the other 79 % compete against one another, the golf course or themselves ?


You are dismissing the fact that most golfers do not belong to a club or have a handicap.

You may not consider these individuals "golfers," but I think all the public courses in the US would probably disagree with you.

Most public courses that I've been to have handicap listings for the golfers who play there.[/color]

[David_Tepper]

Michael W. -

"starting () to sound like a private club snob"......where have been you for his past 16,000+ posts?    

DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

Rather than demonstrate your ignorance about me, why don't you speak to those who have played with me to see if I would fit into your category of a "private club snob"

I grew up playing Essex County West, Ferncliff and other municipal courses when I wasn't sneaking on to Montclair.

The fact remains that golfers like to play against each other, and, to do so, they need a handicap to level the playing field.
That's not snobery, that's common sense, something you lack.

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm done with this thread... it's a waste of time. Patrick... go to bed, get up early in the morning and call your local state association and ask them how the NFG foundation defines a "golfer." It really doesn't matter.

If you reduce their numbers by 50% it still means that only 40% of "core" golfers have a handicap... which is what the Carolinas Golf Association and GolfNet claim... which means that 60% of individuals who consider themselves golfers do not have a handicap. Pat, you are only considering predominately white men and women who are members of private clubs. There is a big, bright, colorful, multi-cultural, non-private world of golf out there that you obviously know very little about.  And, from the sound of your comments, you don't want to learn too much about it.

I didn't have a handicap for the vast majority of my golfing life and got along just fine... as did the 20-30 friends with whom I played regularly. We knew each others games and placed our wagers accordingly. We didn't need a handicap to "compete" and have fun. It was only when I became interested in playing in organized events did I develop a need a "formal" handicap.

I would venture to say that the vast majority of golfers I play with over the course of a year do not have a handicap. These are people who work in the golf industry as employees of courses or resorts; people who work for advertising, marketing, or PR firms that represent golf related accounts; and people who work in the media, such as sports writers or golf columnists for newspapers and magazines. Why don't these people have handicaps? Because they don't belong to a club. They are always playing golf as the guest of some course, resort, or social event... and/or they don't have the time or funds to join a private club.

I know for a fact that very few golfers who play at public courses have a handicap. Yes, many public courses offer a handicap service. I know this because they have to be licensed by a USGA sanctioned association (like the SCGA) in order to do so. Ask them how many of their patrons take advantage of it... very few. So few that they would all go out of business if they had to rely on only their handicap golfers to survive. If you doubt me, go ask Essex County West, Ferncliff and the other municipal courses you have played... as well as Montclair if they will let you back after stealing so much golf from them.

That's it. Good night Mrs Calabash, wherever you are.

[Jamey Bryan]

Patrick:

First, let me say I agree with and accept your most important argument that golfers like to compete and that (honest) handicaps allow all to do so fairly.  I should also say that I'm in the small minority who like tournament golf (medal, four ball, scratch, handicap, anything but sandbagger-friendly member/guest).  I play in tournaments and have served on tournament/rules committees for the CGA (serving North and South Carolina) and the SCGA.

However, I think we've gotten away from Mike's original question of why do so few test their games regularly in MEDAL events.  

Mike's numbers are correct, and there's little skewing due to handicap limitations, etc.  However, you're also correct that the venue of the competition has a huge impact on the interest (which does bring in limiting the field via handicap ranking).  As an example, I was interested in playing in the SC MidAm Four Ball last year; a tournament which had not had a full field in several years.  Last year it was held at Paul Cowley's new Patriot's Point course, and it took a COMBINED index of about 4 to get in.  This is the exception, however, the vast majority of the MEDAL tournaments run by the SCGA (NOT the major championships) do not fill the field and have no handicap limitations.  

It's also illuminating to look at club tournaments.....  My club has an active tournament schedule:
Club Championship
Camden Four Ball (match play handicap)
Fall Member/Member (used to be handicap stroke play four ball, was changed last year to a mixed goofy golf format)
Spring Member/Member (mixed goofy golf)
Super Bowl (Captain's Choice)
Member/Guest (Sandbagger friendly match play)
Daily Dogfight (Stableford)
Numerous club-sponsored events which are NEVER medal.

Out of all the events available at my club, only one per year is true medal play.  That's been true (or at least close) everywhere I've belonged for the past 25 years.

Jamey

[Brent Hutto]

But, playing 30 rounds a year and not having a handicap is beyond belief and counter-intuitive.

As others have suggested, you need to get out more. For the first ten years I played golf, it was entirely at public courses. Not one person in ten that I played golf with had a USGA handicap index. Nowhere near half the people I played golf with had even an informal index that they tracked using a web site or spreadsheet at home. And those included numerous "golfers" who played basically once a week.

And the real surprise is that I frequently played in low stakes games with these handicap-lacking "golfers". It didn't matter much to me because I didn't have a handicap index either, despite playing 80-90 rounds per year. Usually, we'd just ask "what do you shoot?" and figure out strokes from there or else play straight up if it was someone I'd played with before who had similar ability to myself. I started playing golf in 1994 and as far as I can recall it was in either the Fall of 1998 or 1999 when I first obtained a USGA handicap index (although for a year or two before that I had been calculating a pseduo-handicap using the USGA formula).

[Andy Hughes]

I would have thought something like 18 games a year minimum sounds reasonable

Drat! I am not a 'golfer'!  
Do pros have handicaps? If not, are they golfers?

[Andy Troeger]

It should be pretty obvious from my other comments, but I never bothered to re-establish my handicap when I moved to New Mexico. I saved all my scores for awhile and went to the public course to get one, then once I had the application realized that I had not "used" the one I had for about 5 years and had no intentions of needing it for anything here either...and threw it away.

If anyone wants to think I'm not a golfer that's fine with me. I'll be out on some course sometime soon anyway  


Sean,
When I say a golfer competes against the golf course, that generally means that they are competing against themselves, whether it be their average, best score, or history on that course. Its very possible to do.

[David_Tepper]

Isn't it interesting how those who are the most willing to dish it out are so reluctant to take it themselves?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't it interesting how those who are the most willing to dish it out are so reluctant to take it themselves?  

David,

I have no problem taking it, as long as the remarks are accurate.  Yours wasn't.   Why should I remain silent and accept your ignorance on the subject ?

Brent Hutto,

A handicap and a USGA Handicap index are two different things.

Local clubs can establish handicaps and NOT be part of the USGA index system where golfers are assigned GHIN #'s.

[Kalen Braley]

I personally use a website to get a "close enough" approximation of my handicap.  And this suits me just fine.

I think alot of where one is "coming from" on this thread depends in large part on what type of weekly game you usually have.  For those who play with friends on a regular basis, I would imagine there is a lot more betting/chiding/teasing and all that fun stuff that Mr. Mucci talked about.  As for myself, having recently re-located to a new area, every round I play is with strangers, so the whole betting/teasing component is right out the window.  

I will agree with the consensus, the vast majority of the players I've played with over the years don't carry a handicap or even keep a quasi one thru a website/spreadsheet.

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