[Steve Lang]

 

ego

not masochistic enough

age sensitive, putting nerves challanged

5+ hour rounds..


i played many of our mga events for 10-12 yrs.. now only championships, sometimes.. can't stand the 12 handicapper whinning about shootin 78.. especially inStableford event!

i haven't kept scorecard score for last 3 years, but will pay attention when there's a target on my back.. unfortunately, that's most everytime I play with ms sheila, she puts in my scores..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Every Monday the "Star Ledger" publishes the golf results for the weekend for all of the golf clubs in the subscription area in northern New Jersey.

Hundreds of names appear on those lists, and those are just the winners, thousands upon thousands of golfers compete every weekend at the local level, testing their games against their fellow clubmates and the golf course.

In addition, handicap and field size limitations restrict the number of entrants in State, Regional and National events.
[size=4x]
Golf is all about competition, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be any handicaps [/color][/size]

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
On some level I actually agree with you. Even though I don't play all that competitively against other people I certainly still am trying to play well relative to what I usually shoot either in general or on a specific course. In golf, the competition is as much against the course as the opponent, especially in medal play, so there is some truth to that.

Regarding handicaps, I think that argument has a flaw as I know a fair amount of golfers (and decent ones that) who do not carry official handicaps nor do they care to since they don't play in tournaments that require them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
On some level I actually agree with you. Even though I don't play all that competitively against other people I certainly still am trying to play well relative to what I usually shoot either in general or on a specific course. In golf, the competition is as much against the course as the opponent, especially in medal play, so there is some truth to that.

Regarding handicaps, I think that argument has a flaw as I know a fair amount of golfers (and decent ones that) who do not carry official handicaps nor do they care to since they don't play in tournaments that require them.

Andy,

When golfers play against one another, they must have an offset that creates parity, that offset is a handicap.

It's sole purpose isn't for tournament play, it's purpose is to allow golfers to compete against one another and the golf course on an equal footing.[/color]

[Andy Troeger]

Pat,
I know what a handicap is and the reasons for having one...I'm just pointing out that if not all golfers bother to have one, then that might indicate they are not too concerned with competition against other golfers.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

I didn't bring the purest form of the game into the equation because the thread was just about STROKEPLAY at the point I made my comment on. Yes, of course you are right and I am sure that some poor 54 handicapper from germany will develope a stableford system for matchplay for all those poor no hopers who....

[Michael Whitaker]

Every Monday the "Star Ledger" publishes the golf results for the weekend for all of the golf clubs in the subscription area in northern New Jersey.

Hundreds of names appear on those lists, and those are just the winners, thousands upon thousands of golfers compete every weekend at the local level, testing their games against their fellow clubmates and the golf course.

In addition, handicap and field size limitations restrict the number of entrants in State, Regional and National events.
[size=4x]
Golf is all about competition, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be any handicaps [/color][/size]

Not all competition is a test. If I play poker with my son it is competition. If I enter a poker tournament it is a competitive test of my skill at the game vs the other participants.

Nearly everyone enjoys competition in some form, no matter the game... few seek a competitive "test" of their skills as they already know they are limited in their ability.

Tournament golfers are a special breed, of which you are obviously one. I congratulate you on that, but you are in the minority... which is irrefutably confirmed by the numbers. Most golfers simply don't look at the game the way you do. They enjoy the competition inherent in playing, but they do not desire a competitive test of their skill. That's not a bad thing... it's just the way it is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Every Monday the "Star Ledger" publishes the golf results for the weekend for all of the golf clubs in the subscription area in northern New Jersey.

Hundreds of names appear on those lists, and those are just the winners, thousands upon thousands of golfers compete every weekend at the local level, testing their games against their fellow clubmates and the golf course.

In addition, handicap and field size limitations restrict the number of entrants in State, Regional and National events.
[size=4x]
Golf is all about competition, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be any handicaps [/color][/size]

Not all competition is a test. If I play poker with my son it is competition. If I enter a poker tournament it is a competitive test of my skill at the game vs the other participants.

We're not talking about poker, we're talking about golf.
Please stay on topic.[/color]

Nearly everyone enjoys competition in some form, no matter the game... few seek a competitive "test" of their skills as they already know they are limited in their ability.

That's where the handicap becomes the equalizer in abilities.[/color]

Tournament golfers are a special breed, of which you are obviously one. I congratulate you on that, but you are in the minority... which is irrefutably confirmed by the numbers.


No it's not.
Virtually every golfer I know competes against others, the golf course or themselves.[/color]


Most golfers simply don't look at the game the way you do.


How would you know that ?
How do I look at the "game" any differently ?
It's about getting from Point A to Point B in as few strokes as possible.  How is that view different from the masses ?[/color]

They enjoy the competition inherent in playing, but they do not desire a competitive test of their skill.

Every time they try to better their score, their handicap, their competitors, themselves, they're competitively testin their skill.   It's undeniable.[/color]

That's not a bad thing... it's just the way it is.


I think my view is more realistic[/color]

[Michael Whitaker]

Patrick - I think I've made my point. I'm trying to stay congenial with you but you're making it hard. Let's just agree to disagree on this subject. Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - I think I've made my point. I'm trying to stay congenial with you but you're making it hard. Let's just agree to disagree on this subject. Thanks.

Not at all.

As I stated earlier, if golfers didn't want to compete against each other, the golf course or themselves, they wouldn't have handicaps.

It's the handicap that lets all golfers compete on an equal footing.

That's one of the beauties of the game.
A unique aspect that doesn't exist in most sports.

A poor golfer can compete against a mediocre, good and great golfer, all through the equalizer of the handicap system.

Friday afternoon I went to a club late in the afternoon to hit balls.  After hitting them a fellow member asked me if I wanted to play 9 holes.  As we stood on the 8th tee, a 160 yard par 3, I said, I'll play you for a coke and I'll give you a shot on either of the next two holes, but, you have to declare which hole before we tee off.  Giving him a shot on just two holes was generous on my part as his handicap wouldn't generate that alotment.  I won the two holes.
He then asked if I wanted to play three more holes.
I said, "yes" and that I was very thirsty (it was 95 and humid) so I said that I'd play him double or nothing and I'd give him strokes on two holes, but, he had to pick the holes prior to teeing off.  He won the last hole and we broke even.

Both of us competed ferociously for that coke.
That's the beauty of the game.
Whether it's for pride, a coke, lunch, caddy fees or more, the game's inherent lure is the challenge and competition.

It didn't matter how different our abilities were, the handicap system allowed us to compete equally.  And, we loved the competition.

I've never met a golfer who didn't care what he shot.

What have you heard more of after a golfer hits a bad shot ?
Curse words or giggles and laughter ?

Do golfers come home in a good or bad mood after a bad round ?

A good round ?

We want to rise to the challenge, the test, it's inherent in the game, irrespective of whether you're playing in a tournament, with your friends, against the golf course or against yourself.  The challenge/test IS the INHERENT lure of the game.[/color]

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I don't think you'll get much argument that every golfer wants to test their game against the course. I think you will find that some of us don't get nearly so excited as you about competing against others.

[Michael Whitaker]

Patrick - I agree with you completely that golfers like to compete against each other, gamble, play games, try to shoot the lowest score they can, and strive to improve their skills over time. Where we disagree is your contention that golfers want to have their game "tested" or "examined." You obviously revel in the challenge a tough course, hole, or tournament challenge brings... the average golfer has very little interest in putting their game through such a public examination. As I said before, they know they can't play very well and they don't want a public forum to point it out. A good example of this is what happened at True Blue in Pawleys Island, SC. It was originally built to be a very difficult course... a complete examination of a player's game... the ultimate test. What happened is that few golfers enjoyed themselves and even fewer came back a second time. They came off the course mad as hell... and they were not going to take it anymore. A small percentage of really good players, like you, loved the course and couldn't wait to go back out and tackle the challenge again. They loved the test the course presented and sang its praises high and low. But they were a very small minority. To stay alive True Blue had to make numerous changes to the course... changes that the good players called a "dumbing down" of the course. The good players simply couldn't understand why the changes had to be made... they didn't see anything wrong with the course the way it was. But, you know what? The average golfers came back in droves and they now sing the course's praises. The bottom line is that the good players loved the test True Blue presented, while the average player hated it.

Perhaps you view my difference of opinion as just semantics, but I have had the opportunity to observe how thousands of average golfers view this subject. I can assure you that they do not seek to have their game "tested" the way scratch players do. Yes, they enjoy competing with their friends for cokes and other wagers, but they don't want to play courses that beat them up and they don't want to play in individual strokeplay tournaments that "examine" their game.

[Pete Lavallee]

As I said earlier, one Club I belong to has a monthly tournament, only four of which are medal play events, by the members request. I joined another Club specifically because they do have a monthly medal play tournament. That Club has 450 members, however only 150 regularly play in the tounament. Scientific proof that only 1/3 of the members who have a handiap wish to have their games teted in the crucible of organized competition. I think that figure is quite reflective of the natonwide average of handicapped players; now add in the ones who have no handicap and you are very close to the 10% figure Michael stated earlier.

[Mark Pearce]

I think it's very different in the UK.  Most clubs have a Monthly Medal, which is almost invariably strokeplay.  Many have several additional competitions, many of which are strokeplay, a few of which are Stableford or Bogey.  I'destimate that from May to September my club, which is a fairly traditional English club, has three strokeplay competitions a month (including midweek medals).  Some clubs have fare fewer competitions (e.g. HCEG) but many more will have more competitions. A public course club I belonged to years ago pretty much had a strokeplay medal every weekend.

[Andy Hughes]

Michael, any guesstimate what percentage of the golfers in SC carry 'real' handicaps?

[Brent Hutto]

Michael, any guesstimate what percentage of the golfers in SC carry 'real' handicaps?

Andy,

What counts as a "golfer"?

If you're talking about members of private or semi-private clubs who play 30+ rounds per year I'd say maybe half of them have a USGA handicap and another 10% or so have some sort of semi-official pseudo-USGA index.

If you're talking about everyone who plays, let's say, 10 or more rounds per year then less than a quarter of them have any sort of recognized handicap index. Probably not much more than one in ten.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - I agree with you completely that golfers like to compete against each other, gamble, play games, try to shoot the lowest score they can, and strive to improve their skills over time.

Where we disagree is your contention that golfers want to have their game "tested" or "examined."

You obviously revel in the challenge a tough course, hole, or tournament challenge brings...

No, I don't.

You continually refer to having your game tested or examined in the sole context of difficulty, and, that's not the case.

An examination of one's game isn't a torture test.[/color]

the average golfer has very little interest in putting their game through such a public examination.

Since when does the public get to view the examination on a shot by shot basis ?  The "public" doesn't want to know "how", their focus is on "how many", hence I don't get the element of "scrutiny" that you've attached to the issue, be it at match or medal play.[/color]

As I said before, they know they can't play very well and they don't want a public forum to point it out.

Few, if any, "average" golfers engage in gross competitions.
Most are eager to compete on a net basis.
A basis where the handicap system levels the playing field.
A basis where the golfer can shoot sub-par rounds and destroy his competition.
Net tournaments are exceedingly popular in my neck of the woods because the handicap system allows golfers of different abilities to compete equally.  That's one of the beauties of the game.

At a Charity outing I played in last week at The Creek, the winning NET SCORE in a best ball of the foursome was 48.

All 136 golfers reveled in the competition.
The two groups I brought played against each other as well as competing in the tournament, and, we all had a great time, in our personal match and within the tournament.

Noone cared what the "public" thought of them or their play.[/color]

A good example of this is what happened at True Blue in Pawleys Island, SC. It was originally built to be a very difficult course... a complete examination of a player's game... the ultimate test.

For whom ?

The low handicap golfer playing in gross events ?[/color]

What happened is that few golfers enjoyed themselves and even fewer came back a second time. They came off the course mad as hell... and they were not going to take it anymore.

Why ?
Was there something about the set-up, the conditions, the architecture ?[/color]

A small percentage of really good players, like you, loved the course and couldn't wait to go back out and tackle the challenge again. They loved the test the course presented and sang its praises high and low.

When you say test, are you contexting the issue in terms of difficulty ?

Don't confine your definition of a challenge in the sole context of difficulty.  Is the 137 yard, down wind, down hill to a huge green, par 3 at NGLA a challenge ?   YES

Is it difficult to the degree that high handicappers don't like it ?   NO

There's a distinct difference in being challenged and being faced with a shot that's beyond the golfers abilities.
And that's where I think you're being confused.[/color]

But they were a very small minority. To stay alive True Blue had to make numerous changes to the course... changes that the good players called a "dumbing down" of the course. The good players simply couldn't understand why the changes had to be made... they didn't see anything wrong with the course the way it was. But, you know what? The average golfers came back in droves and they now sing the course's praises. The bottom line is that the good players loved the test True Blue presented, while the average player hated it.


Maybe the underlying architecture was lacking or one dimensional.   I couldn't say because I've never seen it.

But, NGLA is the antithesis.
Good and average golfers love it.
It has the ability to challenge the game of the entire spectrum of golfers who trod its fairways.

What did NGLA have that True Blue didn't ?
Probably the variety in the architecture that allowed it to challenge good and mediocre golfers[/color]

Perhaps you view my difference of opinion as just semantics, but I have had the opportunity to observe how thousands of average golfers view this subject. I can assure you that they do not seek to have their game "tested" the way scratch players do.

Of course they do when the challenge is commensurate with or a little above their game.   You keep wanting to equate the challenge presented to the scratch player to the challenge presented to the mid to high handicapper, and it's not.

When I ask mid to high handicappers if they'd like to play GCGC they jump at the chance, and, once they've played it, they beg to return.   WHY ?

GCGC certainly isn't an easy golf course.
The bunkers are deep, requiring ladders to descend and ascend.  The rough is deep, the carries challenging.

Yet, everyone loves the golf course.
Old members, young members, low handicaps, average handicaps and high handicaps.   WHY ?
Because it offers a unique challenge to all levels.[/color]

Yes, they enjoy competing with their friends for cokes and other wagers, but they don't want to play courses that beat them up and they don't want to play in individual strokeplay tournaments that "examine" their game.

The moment you used the term "beat them up" you're going to extremes to try to make your point.

What about the courses "beat them up" ?
Are they playing from the wrong tees ?
And, what courses in the U.S. routinely "beat up" every level of golfer ?

Why do the members and guests at Oakmont, Winged Foot, GCGC, Shinnecock, Seminole, Pine Valley and others revel in the challenge that's presented every day ?

Why do they clamor to play those courses, especially in tournaments ?

Club after club has to turn away members and guests from signing up for tournaments because the events are so popular that the fields fill up almost immediately.

WHY ?

I think most golfers gravitate toward and enjoy a REASONABLE challenge[/color]

Pete Lavalee,

With a membership of 450 and 150 members participating in a medal play tournament, how could the golf course accomodate more golfers ?

Medal play tournaments have to be conducted on the same day so that the competitors are essentially facing the same conditions of play.

[Brent Hutto]

If you take all of the Oakmonts, Pine Valleys and Winged Foots in the northeastern US and have them offer all the tournament opportunities they possibly can...that's enough spots for maybe half a percent of the golfers in that region to play in one or two such events per year. There are way more than that many serious challenge freaks who will take them up on it.

Mike is asking about normative behavior of the majority of golfers. Nobody would dispute that the most hard-core percent or two of golfers generally love the challenged of stroke play competition, especially at a famous course.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

From a sports psychologist point of view the answer to the original question is very simple...it is the fear of failure that the games creates for everybody.
Those who learn to control the fear end up being the best players, or having short careers..ala Bobby Jones and Byron Nelson both of whom had horrible pre match nerve problems.
This is very evident at all levels of play, some of us like to push ourselves so much that we compete despite the 'torture" this may put us through, as the "high" of competition just surpasses the strain of the competition itself.

Is that too deep of an answer?

[Andy Hughes]

What counts as a "golfer"?

I was going along with what Michael started with, members of the state association. But you're right--I certainly didn't make that clear.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent,

Why are you confining the challenge to stroke play ?

Aren't golfers challenged when they play match play ?

Aren't golfers challenged when they just go out and play a round by themselves ?

[Jamey Bryan]

Patrick....

You lost your side with me.

"At a Charity outing I played in last week at The Creek, the winning NET SCORE in a best ball of the foursome was 48."

This was not a tournament with verified, real handicaps.

Nor was it a real test.

Jamey

[Brent Hutto]

Brent,

Why are you confining the challenge to stroke play ?

Aren't golfers challenged when they play match play ?

Aren't golfers challenged when they just go out and play a round by themselves ?

Lord knows for me it's plenty of challenge to finish a round using the same ball I started with, especially of late. But I don't consider either that or a friendly match to be a real "test".

Maybe it's just me but I think lots of us think of a stroke-play tournament, especially one over multiple rounds, to provide a special additional "test" beyond what we experience every Saturday morning with the usual Nassau. That's the sort of thing that shows up as a "T" score on the handicap computer and I think that's what Michael was observing the rarity of.

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete Lavalee,

With a membership of 450 and 150 members participating in a medal play tournament, how could the golf course accomodate more golfers ?

Medal play tournaments have to be conducted on the same day so that the competitors are essentially facing the same conditions of play.

Pat, I wasn't clear with my point that because the Club has 2 golf courses we can have one course totally devoted to the tournament and having a greater turnout would be possible. The Tournament Commitee was recently lamenting that more golfers didn't participate. I was frankly amazed that we draw as many, 150 out of 450, as we do.

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael, any guesstimate what percentage of the golfers in SC carry 'real' handicaps?

The SC Golf Association has around 70,000 individual members, from about 55,000 households. These individuals represent 250-300 member clubs. The SCGA had ~5,500 individual members participate in their 2006 season of tournaments... this included all of the association's events: 76 One-Day handicap tournaments (senior & regular), 8 USGA Qualifiers, 18 Statewide Championships, 7 "40-Plus" Events and 5 Special Events.

The National Golf Foundation and the Carolinas Golf Association estimate that only 40% or so of all golfers in SC are members of the SCGA and maintain a handicap through that association. I'm fairly confident that they consider a "golfer" someone who plays at least six times a year, but I would have to look that up to be absolutely sure.

In any case, if the 70,000 number is correct there are 175,000 golfers in SC.

The 5500 individuals who participated in the SCGA's events represent only 7.9% of their total membership of 70,000.

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