Worst-routed "great" course?

[gookin]

One that sticks out for me is Caves Valley. Heck they need to use carts to shuttle players from several greens to the next tee.

[Andy Hughes]

Andy, originally Faulkner wanted to print the book in four colors, to distinguish the POVs. As it would have bankrupted the publisher, they went with italics instead, to the eternal confusion of us!

Is this a great site, or what?  If you can manage to evade all the dudes who are so viscerally bothered by Michelle Wie, you can come across gems like this, and Bob's. Mark, I don't even care if you made it up-I love it!  

[Andy Hughes]

Oh yeah, GCA.  Is Shadow Creek a great course with a great, average, poor or irrelevant routing?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Andy,

Although I did get that second hand, it was a Faulkner scholar who told it.

You know, 99 percent of writer biographies are dust-dry, but Faulkner's life seems more interesting than most, if only for how much of it was lived below, thanks to alcohol.

But wait - here's another one. Towards the end of his life, he put himself out to pasture and took a position at UVa. Predictably, admirers, notably students, beat a path to his office door to pay homage, including an undergraduate who showed up one day.

She professed her awe at his genius, said she'd read everything he'd written, had inspired her to become a writer, etc etc.

She just went on and on, breathless and rambling in the great man's presence. Finally this stream of consciousness speech ended, and there was a pregnant pause as she waited for some small validation of her words and life choices.

Then Faulkner said, "Last week I fell off my horse and nearly broke my hip."

[BCrosby]

There's the Faulkner story about him working on the screenplay for The Big Sleep in Hollywood (he needed the money). Faulkner and others were working late one night at the studio on revising the script. At one point Faulkner asked if he could go home after he finished the scene they had asked him to do. The director said no problem.

Several days later the director called Faulkner's apartment and was told he had moved out.

When he finally reached Faulkner he was back in Oxford. The director starts screaming at him. Faulkner calmly replied that he had been told that after he had finished the revisions he had been asked to do he could go home. So he did. And he wasn't going back to Hollywood and is my check in the mail?

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob,
have you heard the often (and always differently) told story about Faulkner and Hawks writing the screenplay for this?

Chandler's original plot in the book was very convoluted, and Faulkner and Hawks were trying to figure it out for themselves before writing the screenplay. They were doing pretty well, except for figuring out who killed the chauffeur. So they telegrammed Chandler:

"Who killed the chauffeur?"
"Joe Brody" Chandler writes back
"It can't be. Brody was at Sternwood's"
"Then I don't know either"

Ah, the old days.

Peter

PS - If "plotting a story" is a parallel for "routing a course" maybe this is not too OT. Interesting that so 'badly' a plotted story could make such a terrific film.

 

[BCrosby]

Yes, yes, let's get this back on topic.

The "routing" question that started this thread is like asking if Raymond Chandler could have written a another book rather than The Big Sleep?

I have no idea. I don't know where to begin. I don't even know what an answer would look like.

Bob

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I will throw Whistling Straits in there...what an example of overindulgance and the ultimate man made routing out there...you can brag about it's final lokk if you like and marvel at the so called transformation...but really what a mess

[Patrick_Mucci]

What about those of you who have created a routing for a course only to see another architect get the job, and are aghast at the routing that was chosen?

Or a safer question - are there courses where the routings of two different (and now deceased ) architects exist, where the "road not taken" might have resulted in a better course?

York CC asked Ross and Flynn to do routings for a proposed course. Ross got the job. But his and Flynn's routings had almost nothing in common. It was quite remarkable.

Bob,

I've always been disappointed that the study of those two routings didn't come into focus on GCA.com.

You have the same property and two of the giants in American Golf Course Architecture designing two distinct golf courses.

If that's not the basis for a spectacular thread, I don't know what is.

One of the questions the Ross-Flynn plans raised for me was the issue of ANY routing versus THE routing.

I know that some refer to the routing as the critical framework of the structure, the most important component, yet, here are two distinct routings that would have produced a viable, if not superior product.

And, had AWT, CBM, SR, CB or others brought in, perhaps other equally valid routings would have been presented.

It makes one wonder if the quality of the individual holes aren't more critical than the composite they present.

I've always marveled at the routing process and I'm sure that Tom Doak is correct in referencing how difficult it is, but, the Flynn-Ross routing of York created a great deal of uncertainty with respect to the process.

I'd be curious to know what courses are deemed to suffer from bad routings, and, what improved versions have been presented, which are clearly better.

I recall that Atlantic was criticized for the crossovers between holes until I pointed out that Merion and Lehigh have similar features

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

If five architects were asked to create a routing over the same piece of land and they came up with the same plan, then wouldn't that indicate routing probably is not a differentiating design skill, whereas if the five each came up with a unique routing, that might indicate the importance of the skill and the challenge of mastering it?

Mark

[Jim Nugent]

Didn't Raynor do a routing at CPC, before Alister?  Are the two layouts similar?  Any opinions on how Raynor's would have turned out, especially compared to MacKenzie's?  

[BCrosby]

Pat -

The competing routings for York are fascinating. I'm to blame for not getting something written and posted at GCA on the topic. I will push the project. I think people will enjoy seeing the contrasting routings over the same property by two of the best architects ever.

Bob

[Simon Barrington]

...This statement is not heresay: Old Tom built the First and Eighteenth greens, Alan Robertson built the Seventeenth green, bunkers were removed from between the First and Eighteenth fairway, James Braid added bunkers and Dr. Mac expanded some of the greens. TOC has been tinkered with, and maybe it needs some 21st Century modifications...

This is a claim of real interest that I wish to research, are you still around "plabatt" as I cannot find you in the Member Search.
I realise this post was from quite a while ago, so I really hope you are still on this mortal coil.


Please can you (or others that may know of you on here) get in contact so I can follow up on sources for this claim.


Many Thanks
Simon


(Researcher - Association of James Braid Courses)

[Tom_Doak]

I have enjoyed looking back on this old thread about routing, but another 17 years of experience has me more convinced than ever that it's impossible to discuss in mixed company.


As an example, I am reflecting on the routings for Wild Springs Dunes, which has just been announced.  I first did a 36-hole routing for it 2.5 years ago, and then for a year Bill Coore and I traded plans which overlapped each other, before they acquired more land where most of his course will go.  Since I was tasked with routing the best 18-hole course possible, without consideration for the second 18, I wound up incorporating a handful of holes that Bill had suggested!  [You can't unsee them, which is why a true routing comparison has to be double-blind.]


There are only a handful of the holes from my first 36 that have survived to the present, because that original routing was just done off the topo, and further knowledge of the site led us to avoid some areas [because of permitting issues], and steer toward others [because of views, or trees, or other reasons]. 


The funniest thing, and most telling to the process, is that the ONE hole which both Bill and I had on our initial routings is presently not being used for either course, because getting out of that corner inevitably resulted in a compromise we didn't like.


I suspect the same would be true of the two York routings, if you tried to analyze them here . . . the differences would not just be between the philosophies of the two designers, but more about how much time they'd spent on the site.  And you'd have a very hard time judging what they were going to do with the holes that never got built!  I saw the centerline for the 16th at Streamsong (Red) for months in advance, and I never imagined what Bill was going to do with it.

[Adam Lawrence]

...This statement is not heresay: Old Tom built the First and Eighteenth greens, Alan Robertson built the Seventeenth green, bunkers were removed from between the First and Eighteenth fairway, James Braid added bunkers and Dr. Mac expanded some of the greens. TOC has been tinkered with, and maybe it needs some 21st Century modifications...

This is a claim of real interest that I wish to research, are you still around "plabatt" as I cannot find you in the Member Search.
I realise this post was from quite a while ago, so I really hope you are still on this mortal coil.

Please can you (or others that may know of you on here) get in contact so I can follow up on sources for this claim.

Many Thanks
Simon

(Researcher - Association of James Braid Courses)

I'm pretty sure that's garbage. The bunkers on the right going out, which were the last ones to be built, were done by John Low. And I have never heard anything about Dr MacKenzie working on TOC.

[Tom_Doak]

...This statement is not heresay: Old Tom built the First and Eighteenth greens, Alan Robertson built the Seventeenth green, bunkers were removed from between the First and Eighteenth fairway, James Braid added bunkers and Dr. Mac expanded some of the greens. TOC has been tinkered with, and maybe it needs some 21st Century modifications...

This is a claim of real interest that I wish to research, are you still around "plabatt" as I cannot find you in the Member Search.
I realise this post was from quite a while ago, so I really hope you are still on this mortal coil.

Please can you (or others that may know of you on here) get in contact so I can follow up on sources for this claim.

Many Thanks
Simon

(Researcher - Association of James Braid Courses)

I'm pretty sure that's garbage. The bunkers on the right going out, which were the last ones to be built, were done by John Low. And I have never heard anything about Dr MacKenzie working on TOC.

I don't remember "plabatt" from years ago so his claims are subject to scrutiny.  And I don't remember Dr. MacKenzie ever claiming to have done anything to The Old Course.  But, if he had suggested mowing the green bigger on a couple of holes to gain a new hole location, would that even be recorded as "work" ?  Probably not; so it's possible it happened.

[Tim_Weiman]

I have enjoyed looking back on this old thread about routing, but another 17 years of experience has me more convinced than ever that it's impossible to discuss in mixed company.


As an example, I am reflecting on the routings for Wild Springs Dunes, which has just been announced.  I first did a 36-hole routing for it 2.5 years ago, and then for a year Bill Coore and I traded plans which overlapped each other, before they acquired more land where most of his course will go.  Since I was tasked with routing the best 18-hole course possible, without consideration for the second 18, I wound up incorporating a handful of holes that Bill had suggested!  [You can't unsee them, which is why a true routing comparison has to be double-blind.]


There are only a handful of the holes from my first 36 that have survived to the present, because that original routing was just done off the topo, and further knowledge of the site led us to avoid some areas [because of permitting issues], and steer toward others [because of views, or trees, or other reasons]. 


The funniest thing, and most telling to the process, is that the ONE hole which both Bill and I had on our initial routings is presently not being used for either course, because getting out of that corner inevitably resulted in a compromise we didn't like.


I suspect the same would be true of the two York routings, if you tried to analyze them here . . . the differences would not just be between the philosophies of the two designers, but more about how much time they'd spent on the site.  And you'd have a very hard time judging what they were going to do with the holes that never got built!  I saw the centerline for the 16th at Streamsong (Red) for months in advance, and I never imagined what Bill was going to do with it.

Tom,


If by “mixed company” you mean golf architecture junkies with no professional experience, I agree with you.


I don’t recall ever seeing any of us intelligently discuss the options and alternatives faced by the professional who actually did the routing work. IMO, this even applies to the famous example of Spyglass.


Tim

[Sean_A]

I have enjoyed looking back on this old thread about routing, but another 17 years of experience has me more convinced than ever that it's impossible to discuss in mixed company.


As an example, I am reflecting on the routings for Wild Springs Dunes, which has just been announced.  I first did a 36-hole routing for it 2.5 years ago, and then for a year Bill Coore and I traded plans which overlapped each other, before they acquired more land where most of his course will go.  Since I was tasked with routing the best 18-hole course possible, without consideration for the second 18, I wound up incorporating a handful of holes that Bill had suggested!  [You can't unsee them, which is why a true routing comparison has to be double-blind.]


There are only a handful of the holes from my first 36 that have survived to the present, because that original routing was just done off the topo, and further knowledge of the site led us to avoid some areas [because of permitting issues], and steer toward others [because of views, or trees, or other reasons]. 


The funniest thing, and most telling to the process, is that the ONE hole which both Bill and I had on our initial routings is presently not being used for either course, because getting out of that corner inevitably resulted in a compromise we didn't like.


I suspect the same would be true of the two York routings, if you tried to analyze them here . . . the differences would not just be between the philosophies of the two designers, but more about how much time they'd spent on the site.  And you'd have a very hard time judging what they were going to do with the holes that never got built!  I saw the centerline for the 16th at Streamsong (Red) for months in advance, and I never imagined what Bill was going to do with it.

Tom,


If by “mixed company” you mean golf architecture junkies with no professional experience, I agree with you.


I don’t recall ever seeing any of us intelligently discuss the options and alternatives faced by the professional who actually did the routing work. IMO, this even applies to the famous example of Spyglass.


Tim

I do recall laymen debating Turnberry and its use of the coast. They weren’t wrong, even if they couldn’t devise a better routing. I always wondered exactly how Turnberry wound up with the routing it had pre-Trump.


Ciao

[Michael Felton]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.


By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

[Kalen Braley]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.


By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

I was surprised to read this, but is certainly true.

There are two long walks at TOC according to Google Earth:

Driving Range/Club house to 1st tee = .45 miles
9 green to 10 tee = .55 miles.

Thankfully most of the other hole transitions are pretty minimal, 50 yards or less to what appears to be the middle tees...

[archie_struthers]

 


One negates the other for me! If its poorly routed it isn't great ...simply put

[PThomas]

wasn't a human mistake regarding a permit or something else the cause of the routing from 9-10 at The Ocean course?

[Brian Finn]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.


By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

I was surprised to read this, but is certainly true.

There are two long walks at TOC according to Google Earth:

Driving Range/Club house to 1st tee = .45 miles
9 green to 10 tee = .55 miles.

Thankfully most of the other hole transitions are pretty minimal, 50 yards or less to what appears to be the middle tees...

They shuttle you to the first tee and then again from 9 green to 10 tee.  It hardly detracts from what is otherwise a great course and experience. 

[Sean_A]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.


By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

I was surprised to read this, but is certainly true.

There are two long walks at TOC according to Google Earth:

Driving Range/Club house to 1st tee = .45 miles
9 green to 10 tee = .55 miles.

Thankfully most of the other hole transitions are pretty minimal, 50 yards or less to what appears to be the middle tees...

They shuttle you to the first tee and then again from 9 green to 10 tee.  It hardly detracts from what is otherwise a great course and experience.

I don’t agree. It is great  to tee up and putt out in front of the house. Looking over a range is daft. There is a beauty in the idea of efficient design.

Ciao

[Mike_Clayton]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.


By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

I haven't played Ellerston for 20 years - and I've discussed it with Bob Harrison who designed it for Greg Norman.
Bob had a more walkable routing but "I knew I wasn't going to win an argument against both Kerry Packer (who was the wealthiest man in Australia) and Greg."
The brief was; 'I don't care what you do just make it effing hard."
Packer was always playing in a cart so he didn't care about the nuance of a walkable routing.


Bob called him some way into the work and asked him about the women's tees and how he wanted them positioned.
"There was a long silence at the end of the phone"
 "I assume you are effing joking."