[Tom_Doak]

I haven't played Ellerston for 20 years - and I've discussed it with Bob Harrison who designed it for Greg Norman.
Bob had a more walkable routing but "I knew I wasn't going to win an argument against both Kerry Packer (who was the wealthiest man in Australia) and Greg."
The brief was; 'I don't care what you do just make it effing hard."
Packer was always playing in a cart so he didn't care about the nuance of a walkable routing.


Bob called him some way into the work and asked him about the women's tees and how he wanted them positioned.
"There was a long silence at the end of the phone"
 "I assume you are effing joking."

I’d never heard that piece of info about the course, that it was ranked in the top 100 without having any forward tees!  You would think some panelist or another would have mentioned it over the years.

[Adam Lawrence]

I haven't played Ellerston for 20 years - and I've discussed it with Bob Harrison who designed it for Greg Norman.
Bob had a more walkable routing but "I knew I wasn't going to win an argument against both Kerry Packer (who was the wealthiest man in Australia) and Greg."
The brief was; 'I don't care what you do just make it effing hard."
Packer was always playing in a cart so he didn't care about the nuance of a walkable routing.

Bob called him some way into the work and asked him about the women's tees and how he wanted them positioned.
"There was a long silence at the end of the phone"
 "I assume you are effing joking."

I’d never heard that piece of info about the course, that it was ranked in the top 100 without having any forward tees!  You would think some panelist or another would have mentioned it over the years.

I fear that illustrates one of the problems with the panels: the members are so edgy/starstruck at being allowed on a super-private billionaire's course that they overlook its problems.

[Brian Finn]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.

By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

I was surprised to read this, but is certainly true.

There are two long walks at TOC according to Google Earth:

Driving Range/Club house to 1st tee = .45 miles
9 green to 10 tee = .55 miles.

Thankfully most of the other hole transitions are pretty minimal, 50 yards or less to what appears to be the middle tees...

They shuttle you to the first tee and then again from 9 green to 10 tee.  It hardly detracts from what is otherwise a great course and experience.

I don’t agree. It is great  to tee up and putt out in front of the house. Looking over a range is daft. There is a beauty in the idea of efficient design.

Ciao

I agree an ideal course starts and ends at the clubhouse (and Kiawah bats .500 there), and further, in-round shuttling is sub-optimal, but what I consider truly daft is letting such things obscure everything that is great about a place.  There aren't many flawless courses, and even those I consider so lack some of the elements discussed here.

[Niall C]

I have enjoyed looking back on this old thread about routing, but another 17 years of experience has me more convinced than ever that it's impossible to discuss in mixed company.


As an example, I am reflecting on the routings for Wild Springs Dunes, which has just been announced.  I first did a 36-hole routing for it 2.5 years ago, and then for a year Bill Coore and I traded plans which overlapped each other, before they acquired more land where most of his course will go.  Since I was tasked with routing the best 18-hole course possible, without consideration for the second 18, I wound up incorporating a handful of holes that Bill had suggested!  [You can't unsee them, which is why a true routing comparison has to be double-blind.]


There are only a handful of the holes from my first 36 that have survived to the present, because that original routing was just done off the topo, and further knowledge of the site led us to avoid some areas [because of permitting issues], and steer toward others [because of views, or trees, or other reasons]. 


The funniest thing, and most telling to the process, is that the ONE hole which both Bill and I had on our initial routings is presently not being used for either course, because getting out of that corner inevitably resulted in a compromise we didn't like.


I suspect the same would be true of the two York routings, if you tried to analyze them here . . . the differences would not just be between the philosophies of the two designers, but more about how much time they'd spent on the site.  And you'd have a very hard time judging what they were going to do with the holes that never got built!  I saw the centerline for the 16th at Streamsong (Red) for months in advance, and I never imagined what Bill was going to do with it.

Tom,


If by “mixed company” you mean golf architecture junkies with no professional experience, I agree with you.


I don’t recall ever seeing any of us intelligently discuss the options and alternatives faced by the professional who actually did the routing work. IMO, this even applies to the famous example of Spyglass.


Tim

I do recall laymen debating Turnberry and its use of the coast. They weren’t wrong, even if they couldn’t devise a better routing. I always wondered exactly how Turnberry wound up with the routing it had pre-Trump.


Ciao

Sean


Re Turnberry - when Fernie designed/laid out the original course, the land forming the current first 4 holes and most of the 5th hole wasn't included. The starting point was more or less the same, which I assume would have been dictated to Fernie, and he then took the first hole down to the coast more or less along the route of the current 18th. His routing then followed the coastline. Basically he was following the extremity of the property with the later holes coming back to the clubhouse.


A few years later AN Weir laid out a ladies nine hole course (from memory) on the land now forming the first 4 holes. This land was later incorporated into the main course (can't recall when off hand), probably before Colt looked at it. You then had later redesigns by Hutchison (1938), MacKenzie Ross (1952) and more recently Martin Ebert. I'm probably missing a redesign following WWI but can't recall who did that (Braid ?).


The point being though is that subsequent routings followed the general direction laid down by Fernie. Not sure why that should be if the course was destroyed during WWI and WWII as we are led to believe. You'd have thought they'd have more of a free hand to dramatically alter the routing should they have wished.


Niall   

[John Kavanaugh]

I asked ChatGPT and received the following:


In the world of golf course design and architecture, the routing of a golf course plays a crucial role in creating a challenging, engaging, and memorable playing experience for golfers. While opinions on golf course routing can vary based on individual preferences and perspectives, some golf courses have been criticized for their routing despite being considered great in other aspects. Here are a few examples of golf courses that have faced criticism for their routing:


1. Erin Hills (Erin, Wisconsin, USA): Erin Hills, a championship golf course that has hosted major tournaments like the U.S. Open, has been praised for its natural beauty and challenging design. However, some critics have pointed out issues with the course's routing, citing long walks between holes, awkward transitions, and uneven pacing of difficulty throughout the layout.


2. Trump National Golf Club Los Angeles (Rancho Palos Verdes, California, USA): This golf course, owned by former President Donald Trump, has received mixed reviews for its routing. Critics have noted that the course can be difficult to navigate, with some holes feeling disconnected or lacking a cohesive flow. Despite its scenic ocean views and challenging layout, the routing has been a point of contention for some golfers.


3. Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Aberdeen, Scotland): Another course owned by Donald Trump, Trump International Golf Links Scotland has faced criticism for its routing and layout. Golfers have noted that the course can be challenging to walk, with long distances between holes and uneven transitions that disrupt the flow of play. While the course offers stunning coastal views and a links-style design, the routing has been a source of controversy.


It is important to remember that opinions on golf course routing are subjective, and what one golfer may perceive as a flaw in routing, another may appreciate for its uniqueness or challenge. Golf course design is a complex and multifaceted art form, and routing is just one element that contributes to the overall quality and experience of a golf course. Golfers are encouraged to consider a variety of factors, including design, conditions, difficulty, scenery, and personal preferences, when evaluating the routing of a golf course and forming their own opinions

[Sean_A]

Does Ellerston count for this? Unsurprisingly I've never played it, but looking on google maps it doesn't seem to worry about "how to get out of an awkward corner" by just having you ride out of it.

By similar rationale, the Ocean Course at Kiawah has about half a mile between 9 green and 10 tee. That strikes me as a pretty serious drawback on the routing side of things. Maybe that's just because I prefer walking to riding.

I was surprised to read this, but is certainly true.

There are two long walks at TOC according to Google Earth:

Driving Range/Club house to 1st tee = .45 miles
9 green to 10 tee = .55 miles.

Thankfully most of the other hole transitions are pretty minimal, 50 yards or less to what appears to be the middle tees...

They shuttle you to the first tee and then again from 9 green to 10 tee.  It hardly detracts from what is otherwise a great course and experience.

I don’t agree. It is great  to tee up and putt out in front of the house. Looking over a range is daft. There is a beauty in the idea of efficient design.

Ciao

I agree an ideal course starts and ends at the clubhouse (and Kiawah bats .500 there), and further, in-round shuttling is sub-optimal, but what I consider truly daft is letting such things obscure everything that is great about a place.  There aren't many flawless courses, and even those I consider so lack some of the elements discussed here.

Yep, great course. Not the kind a place I would look to play a lot and one reason are the long walks at 1 and 10. The walk is more important to me than to most.

Ciao

[Mike_Clayton]

I haven't played Ellerston for 20 years - and I've discussed it with Bob Harrison who designed it for Greg Norman.
Bob had a more walkable routing but "I knew I wasn't going to win an argument against both Kerry Packer (who was the wealthiest man in Australia) and Greg."
The brief was; 'I don't care what you do just make it effing hard."
Packer was always playing in a cart so he didn't care about the nuance of a walkable routing.

Bob called him some way into the work and asked him about the women's tees and how he wanted them positioned.
"There was a long silence at the end of the phone"
 "I assume you are effing joking."

I’d never heard that piece of info about the course, that it was ranked in the top 100 without having any forward tees!  You would think some panelist or another would have mentioned it over the years.

I fear that illustrates one of the problems with the panels: the members are so edgy/starstruck at being allowed on a super-private billionaire's course that they overlook its problems.

Yes- it was a beautiful place to play with some long views of the Australian countryside but I never thought it a top 100 course in the world. Being such a difficult walk certainly didn't help.
I did ask Bob how much land he (KP) owned.
"As far as you can see in every direction - he owns it all."


It's hard to justify a place in the top 100 when almost literally no one can play the course.

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm sorry but for me one of the needed skills of a GCA and a "great golf course' is routing and with it "walkability" .  I;m getting older and play in a buggy most of the time at my home course (we play really fast) so walking is something for special occasions , winter golf and when I play "great" or interesting courses when it makes sense. 


I could never think a design was great if you had a bunch of long treks from tee to green!  That's something an architect try to find. Bill Coore initially impressed me by the time he took walking the property to find this routing before designing. It's not the only way to design but would be my personal choice if I did another golf course. My favorite architects are adept at making their designs walker friendly.


In our area at the Jersey Shore (south)  Galloway National might be my favorite course but the routing and a couple holes make it very hard to attach "great" to it.  The feel , conditions , and many of the holes are exceptional but to me "great" is a term that shouldn't be bandied about lightly!

[Mike Worth]

In our area at the Jersey Shore (south)  Galloway National might be my favorite course but the routing and a couple holes make it very hard to attach "great" to it.  The feel , conditions , and many of the holes are exceptional but to me "great" is a term that shouldn't be bandied about lightly!

as a South Jersey resident who has played Galloway numerous times, I often hear the comment that the routing is lacking, but I have to confess I have never felt that way while playing it.


Maybe I’ve come to expect non-contiguous routing schemes at Fazio courses.


Perhaps the worst routing I’ve ever seen is Ballamor a S. Jersey course in Egg Harbor Twp — Ault and Clark.

[Ken Fry]

I have a twist on the original question.  What if a great course has it's routing compromised to accommodate changes/lengthening??

I'll use Olympia Fields' North Course as an example.  A very highly regarded course.  The back nine is one of my favorite walks.  Willie Park Jr. never planned for the 5th hole to have a 150 yard walk back to the tees, the 6th hole to play down a hill only to climb back up the same hill to tee off down the 7th hole.

I love Olympia Fields but find that stretch of compromises odd.

There's many more walk back to accommodate course lengthening examples out there.

Thoughts??

Ken

[Mike_Clayton]

I have a twist on the original question.  What if a great course has it's routing compromised to accommodate changes/lengthening??

I'll use Olympia Fields' North Course as an example.  A very highly regarded course.  The back nine is one of my favorite walks.  Willie Park Jr. never planned for the 5th hole to have a 150 yard walk back to the tees, the 6th hole to play down a hill only to climb back up the same hill to tee off down the 7th hole.

I love Olympia Fields but find that stretch of compromises odd.

There's many more walk back to accommodate course lengthening examples out there.




Thoughts??

Ken

Exhibit 1 The Old Course. The walks back are repetitive (80y back and right) and awful.
I caddied the Open qualifying at Royal Cinque Ports last year. The walk backs there are awful too - especially carrying a heavy tour bag all the way just to hand your man a driver.
Too much hand-holding these days.

[cary lichtenstein]

I feel this topic should even be a topic, we are all amateurs, we didn't see the land in person, how can we possibily render and intelligent opinion

[Brian Finn]

I feel this topic should even be a topic, we are all amateurs, we didn't see the land in person, how can we possibily render and intelligent opinion

If we are discussing whether a better routing was possible on the land, I would generally agree with you.  Much as I have tried, I don't really have a clue about how the great architects find such brilliant routing, particularly when the land is covered in trees, bushes, etc.  It seems even among professional gc architects, great routers are rare.

However, I do think many (most?) of us can recognize a bad routing (or at least a specific routing flaw) when we see one.  Perhaps only at a very basic level (e.g. long walks between holes), but I think we can discuss this reasonably, within a certain context, particularly in regard to how it impacts our enjoyment of playing a course. Arble and I may differ in how the huge gaps at Kiawah Ocean affect our view, but we both agree they are a significant flaw.  In some cases, the flaw may be beyond the control of the course designer, while the cause of other issues may be much less clear.

If we can't at least try to discuss topics like this, we end up with a dozen way OT threads on the first page. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()