[Mike_Cirba]

There was a time, which seems milleniums ago now, when Tom Fazio would take on a maximum of six projects a year, because in his own words, "I couldn't do justice to any more than that".  

Now, it seems we have Tom Fazio Inc., which not only has multiple projects ongoing across the country, but also are heavily involved in modernization projects at many of the greatest classic courses in the land.

I mention all of this after having played Fazio's Galloway National Golf Club in NJ this afternoon.  

It is excellent, strategic, gorgeous, fun, thoughtful, rugged, low-key, almost minimalist in amount of earth moved, scenic, and chock full of variety and challenge.  On the Doak Scale, I'd give it an 8 (my very experienced playing partner agreed), because it just provides one superb hole after another, beginning with one of the greatest starting holes I've ever seen.  It is as good as World Woods Pine Barrens, and possibly better.

How good is it?  I think it's the 3rd best course in the state of New Jersey! 

I've played three Fazio courses in the past month, and Emerald Dunes from 1990 was quite good if somewhat limited by the site, Galloway (1995) was fabulous, and the newest one built this year was....well...was chock full of everything that he is criticized here for.

In recent years, it seems the Fazio batting average has dropped precipitously.  The reason is clear.  On most Tom Fazio courses, associates of widely VARIED skill levels are almost wholly responsible!!!  Only on those courses where he seems to take a personal interest and spend a lot of time (i.e. Victorial National) do the results seem to come anywhere near his true abilities, which are considerable.  

The rest seem to be a bunch of courses that fall into the 4-7 range, which seems such a shame to me after seeing today exactly how unbelievably friggin good he can be.  

I hope he decides that he has enough money, and decides to spend the remainder of his career focusing on scaling back a bit and determining that artistiic and creative genius are not talents to be trifled with or minimized in the pursuit of growing an organization that seems to be rapidly embracing something akin to "fabulous mediocrity".  

Also, if he can build courses as wonderful as Galloway, then he should stay away from classic courses and let his original designs stand tall for themselves.  

[Craig_Rokke]

....a nation turns its lonely eyes to you (woo, woo, woo)

oops....wrong guy.

I'm pleased to hear a very strong review of a Fazio course.
Hopefully there will be more courses to come like Galloway.

Any chance, Mike, that the new course is in Central Jersey?

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I wrote a thread about a year ago on here hoping that people would participate in analyzing the individual holes of Galloway National because that's something very much worth doing. The reason is some of the holes are extremely good in the  effects of parts of the architecture and concept of them both general and subtle on "playabiliy"--and by "playability" I do mean "strategic" in subtle ways!

Noone really participated, maybe not many have played the course. I think we should do it not only for an interesting architectural discussion but certainly in fairness to Fazio and his apparent talent.

Certainly, like any golf course (except maybe the really great ones) not every hole at Galloway can "hold its head up to the others" (as Tillinghast said) but there are certainly enough of them that are extremely interesting and good and for a rather wide variety of reasons. As an example, the short little #2 is certainly one of the best conceived and executed short par 3s anywhere--simply because there's sooo much meaning to how you try to play it and how you do. Its midsection "waist" and the chipping area to the left of it is beautifully conceived--as good really in its problems of recoverability from the chipping area as Shinnecock's #11! And there are many others that are notable as much for some really good and really subtle architectural aspects as anything else.

Unfortunately, after any round there, I, for one, really do come away thinking of Galloway as "a bunch of interesting holes" because unfortunately the routing (cart golf routing) makes me feel that way everytime.

Certainly, in the overall this unfortunately has to take Galloway down and maybe a lot if it's to be compared fairly to really great golf courses.

The other really unfortunate aspect to Galloway, I'm told, is the viciously biting flies! But as good as the Faz is at solving any problem thrown at him, I guess he couldn't figure out how to deal with that!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I'd be happy to participate in a full discussion about the architecture of Galloway, because as I mentioned, the design certainly merits it.  I'm guessing that GeoffreyC would jump in as well, and perhaps Patrick and others who've played it will add their impressions.

Routing is certainly the achilles heel at Galloway, although I felt less the "collection of holes" syndrome that I feel at many courses, despite the sometimes awkward nature of the "walk in the park".  I think that is because there is still cohesion among groups of holes themselves.  For instance, the whole string of 1-5 sort of goes along fine, with the 2nd tee right off the 1st green, 3&4 sort of parelleling each other, running right back to the bay again for the 5th.  Yes, then we got lost looking for 6, but I thought that routed you over to another cohesive stretch for 7,8,9, where you can see across stretches of holes, sort of tied together by the site of the elevated clubhouse.  So it goes on the back, where groups of holes play together well, only to segment to another area of the course.  The fact that there are no houses, but only wooded areas between those segments kind of helps in the continuity, as well.  The course is also eminently walkable, albeit with some long stretches between holes.

And yes, there are a couple of holes that are not quite to the standard of most of them, but there is nothing out there that is so weak as to detract greatly.  I'm sure we can get into that in more detail as we discuss the holes.  

Even with the routing issues, it's a wonderful course, and I can think of few better in the Garden State.

[brad_miller]

Mike, #3 in NJ, what's your #2?

[Mike_Cirba]

ahhh...the question I feared!  

I can tell you that it starts with a "P".  

I should mention that I haven't played Somerset Hills.

[TEPaul]

What? The second best in NJ starts with a "P"? I'm too dumb this morning to figure that out or even think clearly! You better not mean PVGC as #2 in NJ or you'd be falling into the odd logic of all Jerseyites, some of whom might maintain that PVGC is #2 in NJ but #1 in the World!

I swear to God, the GAP better just go ahead and take over all golf in that bizarre State of New Jersey and get things into the proper perspective!

Better yet, I think Clementon and a corridor to it should be officially gerrymandered by Congress into the great State of Pennsylvania which would leave the rest of New Jersey to muddle along like they have been!

[CharlestonBuckeye]

To this note, Fazio's Daniel Island Club in CHS is one of the worst, if not the worst, course in his suite I've played.  Very bland and a stretch of holes that run parallel and mirror each other.  I certainly hope he offered his fees at a discount to build this one.

[James Bond]

A)  I'm pleased to hear a very strong review of a Fazio course.
Hopefully there will be more courses to come like Galloway.

B)  Any chance, Mike, that the new course is in Central Jersey?

A)  Goody.   Great courses get great reviews, simple.

B)  It is the Ridge at Back Brook

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Plainfield  

Getting better every day with the ongoing Gil Hanse restoration.

How did GAP manage to annex Long Island while missing huge hunks of New Jersey?  

Who wants to lead off the discussion on Galloway?  

I probably can't contribute again until tomorrow (heading out to play and then out tonight), but I think it might be a worthwhile discussion.

[GeoffreyC]

This has been a very good discussion so far.  I certainly think that a detailed discussion of individual holes would be a useful way to uncover the really quality work that Fazio's group is capable of finishing.

Some other thoughts first.

I think what Mike and Tom have concluded so far fits in exactly with my own thoughts on the course.  The property at Galloway is sand based but other then that very important factor, the Ridge at Back Brook is on a MUCH better property.  Galloway is natural with the periphery of the course blending into the surrounding features very well.  The bunkering is fantastic and well placed requiring thought and strategy to work around.  There are many examples of this that I hope we will document on each hole over the next several days.

I really think that Galloway merits consideration as the third best course in NJ! I too have not seen Somerset Hills.  As Top Paul pointed out, the routing is maybe the only thing holding Galloway back form overtaking Baltusrol Lower.  The individual holes and groups of holes (as Mike pointed out) are that good.

This is the best Fazio course I've played by a good margin.  I've not played World Woods yet but I have played Victoria National and Jupiter Hills (if you count that in Tom's list).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Better than Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Ridgewood, The Knoll,
Hidden Creek, Baltusrol Upper, Baltusrol Lower, Hackensack and Essex County   Hmmmm ?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Hmmmm? is right! That's precisely, PRECISELY, why I've always felt this #1, #2, #3.............#10, etc, stuff which is what these lists and rankings are based on and are all about is really just BS!

All the courses you mentioned there are good courses and good architecture and they should be looked at individually and for what they offer uniquely in the whole sweep of golf architecture. How they stack up against each other is not of real importance to them individually or collectively and shouldn't be to anyone else!

These courses can be and will be fine courses without any assistance whatsoever from these lists and that's what people should understand, at least insofar as their architecture is concerned. Numbering them in numerical lists can only ultimately do them more harm than good and the lists have no real actual meaning anyway when it comes to architectural merit!

Whether Galloway is #3 in NJ or #33 on some list makes absolutely zero difference to me--it is what it is and no list can change that!

[GeoffreyC]

Patrick-  yes -perhaps. From the architecture alone, Galloway certainly deserves consideration and is in the same league with or better then those you mention (the ones I've seen anyway).  The routing takes away from the overall experience but there is enough cohesive hole to hole flow in much of the course as Mike described.

Lets see about the individual holes.

The first hole is a 400 yard dogleg right with fairly severe bunkering along the inside of the dogleg and a bunker to the left.  The fairway is pretty generous as many are at Galloway.  It is a good start to the round.  However, when you get to your tee shot in the fairway (I had 150 left) you are left with a very testing shot to a well bunkered green that you can't miss to the right or par will be a lucky low percentage bet.  The green sits up high and there is a bit of a skyline feature to make it seem more intimidating.  You are heading out directly towards the water/bay so I imagine the wind  can make this shot even harder on most days (it was pretty still when Mike and I were there). The green is quite sloped in the front with a rear tier that is somewhat flatter but back right pins will be no bargain either.  We had a pin right on the edge of the ledge that drops to the front of the green and it was most difficult. This is a second shot hole and a good start.

I think Tom described the 2nd hole already.  It's a testing short par 3 of 146 yards over and along the marsh/bay with the hazard to the right. There is a very imaginative bailout/chipping area to the left that will test your short game with many options if you choose to play away from the hazard.  The green is again quite contoured with a tough little back ledge and quite a bit of internal contour. Tom- you compared this chipping area with the left side of Shinnecock #11 and that's QUITE a compliment (Ask Mr. Huckaby   ).

SO Tom, I don't think Mike or I want to put down any other courses by mentioning the possibility that Galloway could be the 3rd best course in NJ but I think that the mere mention that the course is in that kind of company makes a point.  That such a good course could come out of Fazio's design team and at the same time so many other courses that make you shake your head at the lost possibilities is the main point here.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey;

Thank you.  That is EXACTLY my point, as you stated so well.  

I don't believe the rankings are meaningless, but I don't think our having a debate over which courses should be in the top 10, etc. is going to shed much light on the questions I raised here.  

What I was simply saying is that I thought the architecture at Galloway was superb, and that I can only think of two other courses in the state that I'd say are better off the top of my head.  It was meant to be a compliment to Galloway...not a put down of any other course.

More importantly and more germane to this discusssion, it was meant to reflect exactly how good Tom Fazio can be, and subsequently wonder why he doesn't hit the mark more often.

Now, who's on the third tee?

[TEPaul]

#3 Galloway is a straight and rather straight forward medium length tree lined par 4. The real interest to the hole is an  unusual green, raised and of a shape and dimension that makes distance control to various parts of the green interesting and challenging. But the most interesting part of this hole and green is about the entire left 1/4 of the green surface is basically "false" (at least it was the day I played it). What I mean by "false" is that area is both unpinnable and a ball will not hold on it--either a approach, a chip or a putt!

Definitely some real experience factors in this approach shot.

[GeoffreyC]

#3 at Galloway is 375 yards. Tom is quite correct about the left side of the green. It appears (at least to me from the fairway in a perfect spot playing to a front right pin) that missing on the shortside right would be quite bad.  I therefore bailed left a bit and found the ball ending up just short left and off teh green (not a great shot).  This left a difficult chip up the slope of the green with a back to front slope as well.  There is a lot going on on the 3rd green. Actually missing just short or a bit right would have left a rather simple uphill pitch.  Local knowledge would certainly help course management on this hole.  There are several good pin locations on the third green.

Tom and Pat or anyone else who has played the course- Do you agree with my assessment of #1?

The front bunker is perhaps the only on eat Galloway that is a bit too tidy.  I think a rough edged bunker as most are on the course would intimidate a bit more.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Geoff,

In general, yes.

I think it may be difficult to get a feel for how much you can bite off on your tee shot, and I don't like the cant of the fairway at the elbow and beyond.  I like the green.

The second hole is very difficult because you only have half of a green to work with, it may be too difficult for the distance when the pin is on the lower tier.  Any wind makes the hole even more difficult.

[rob_mauer]

Geoff,
  Why is the ridge at back brook better property then Galloway? The Ridge is shale based and very tough to sustain a good root base for substantial turf.. As I understand it, the USGA recommended they close the course for 2 to 3 days for immediate arification. The cart paths are all curbed, not allowing carts on the fairways. How bad could the turf be? I was there for the grand opening in late July and it seemed ok, although only 9 holes were open.

[GeoffreyC]

Robert

The property at Galloway is ideal only in the sense that it is totally sand based.  This allowed the beautiful bunkering but there isn't much elevation change on the property.  The few high sites were well utilized for greensites.

At the Ridge, the soil clearly isn't as ideal but the property is rolling and undulating over the entire property.  There are numerous opportunities for uphill and downhill holes with ideal elevation changes.  One spot on the back 9 each of us immediately recognized an perfectly natural redan feature in the land.  It would have been a great par 3 but instead it was used in a different way.  There was another spot where a greensite was located on the back nine to allow a nice visual framed picture when nearby to the right was an ideal dell-like site that might have created a hole with better strategy. In short, the topography of the site was excellent.  The turf was really quite good when we were there.

[Mike_Cirba]

For those playing along at home, I'm posting some hole pics here of Galloway from the website.  I will say that the holes are more impressive in person.

#1



#2



#3



Another important distinction is that the bunkers and their surriounds have been allowed to grow wilder than is evident in these pictures.  They are quite gorgeous.

The 4th hole is a dogleg left of 446 yards from the tips.  The tee shot plays downhill, and swings hard to the left in the driving area around a massive expanse of sand on the inside corner.  There is plenty of room out to the right of the bunker, but that leaves a very lengthy approach shot to a green that is set low (and partially blind the further right you drive) in a hollow below the fairway.  The fairway has some interesting contours, as anything left of center is canted towards the bunker (and green), but anything right of center tends to roll further to the right and away from the hole.

The green is wide in the front, tilted from left to right, with a bunker short right of the green for those shots that just don't have enough oomph or proper direction to make it on all the way (although a runup shot is very much accommodated).  There is a tongue of green extending back and right, which is accessible, but difficult.  

#4



I'd also concur with most of the comments of the others about the first three holes, and can think of few courses that offer such severe greensites right out of the box.  They add immeasurably to the demands and interest of each of the holes, much in the psychological and functional way that Pine Valley's first three greensites do (although not quite THAT good).  

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
As you know, I've been saying how good Galloway is for years    I give it an solid 8 as well!  It's in my top three of all the Fazio courses that I have played.  

I honestly believe (sad to say    ) that raters don't rate it higher because of the flies!  It even seems to bother Tom Paul who I thought only focuses on "the architecture"  

By the way, the ackward routing it's weakest link (really the only weakness) but those holes on the other side of the road are really special and worth walking to.  
Mark

[Brian Phillips]

Mike,

Would it be honest to say it looks like a modern day version of Pine Valley?

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike, et al- I haven't heard anything about how the course FEELS, as a course. I see that there is quite a collection of holes but does it have the flow one would find on an 8? We all know that TF can build the shit out of a golf hole,(thats a good thing) but does one get that special sense when finishing or in the bar? I realize that this FEELING is different for everyone, so if you could keep that in mind when answering after trying to figure out what the hell I'm asking.

[archie struthers]

I've been a long time advocate of Galloway National< a beautiful, testng golf course. I feel it is much harder than Pine Valley for lots of good players, although the recent GAP OPEN still has me scratching my head.

The greens at Galloway might be a little on the severe side for my taste, as they can be brutal at championship speeds. #'s 1,2,3,9,12,14,15 &18 all can fall into this grouping.
Somehow, someway you ought to be able to two putt with a little talent.

However, as soon as you drive into Galloway you can feel it is special, and the golf course doesn't dissappoint. Its' not about the history or clubhouse, its about the golf, and I'd argue it isn't that bad a walk.

Galloway is way too hard for the average Joe, and for that reason doesn't stand up to the great golf courses by comparison. It just beats up the average player  unmercifully, with or without the bugs!

How about extending the green on #18 back into the fairway,making it accessible to a good fairway wood for the shorter hitters, and bulldoze the 16th green and start again. Than you really have something special going on!

An interesting note, Jack Nugent and Leo Fraser had their hands on this land too, just like the farm where we built Twisted Dune. Man, were they right about this piece of grond, probably the best at the Jersey Shore>

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