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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lakota Canyon Course Review
« on: June 04, 2007, 08:58:03 PM »
I'm not sure if a course review has been done on Lakota Canyon so I thought I would write one up. A few of us GCA'ers took a weekend jaunt out to Western Colorado to play Lakota Canyon and Redlands Mesa.  We all had a good time and were blessed with great weather.  This review will include my thoughts and opinions on Lakota Canyon, with a similar post on Redlands Mesa following soon. Below are some categories using the standard Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down/Nuetral rankings for each topic.

Course Routing - Thumbs up - The course is routed thru very hilly terrain, especially the front nine. Some creative imagination was used to get all the holes to fit in, especially the par 3s. There was also plenty of hole variety in terms of how the 3s, 4s, and 5s came at you.
 
Tee Shots - Thumbs up - Some might claim that the elevated tee shots are redundant and I cannot argue to the contrary.  But I really liked them as they provided great views of the hole, course, and surrounding areas.

Fairways - Thumbs down - Pretty much every fairway has a bowl/half pipe drop in component to it.  While a few holes had a hazard bordering 1 side, the fairways got pretty redundant pretty quick.  In addition to that, there was little internal contouring on the fairways. They were sloped due to the hilly nature of the course, but they still seemed to have a vanilla taste to the. There were a couple of "turbo" sections put in to get some extra roll, but that was the vast exception not the rule.

Bunkering - Nuetral - Enghs style of bunkering is very unique from what I've seen. I rated this neutral because while it does get redundant, it can make for some interesting recoveries, especially when playing out of the pot bunkers around the greens. And the rolly polly "babys bums" bunkers were no bargain to be in and managed to hold my attention. It was refreshing to see truly "penal" bunkering on the course.

Green Complexes - Thumbs up - There was all kinds of things happening around the greens. Yes almost all of them were either partially or mostly in a bowl, but this did enable for all kinds of shots to consider on the approach.  Part of the fun was trying to guess how much of a kick one gets while hoping your ball didn't get hung up in the rough, high above the gren.  But even when it did, there were all kinds of options and angles to try to get close to the hole.  Many of the green sites had ponsa, ravines, and creeks around them, which were presented in varied attention grabbing ways. I can honeslty say the green complexes actively kept my attention thru the whole round.

Greens - Nuetral - The bad: All of the greens followed 3 basic templates.  Bowl green, green divided by a ridgeline in the middle, or multiply tiered. They don't blend in to the natural surrondings and all had a similar feeling to them. The good: They were a lot of fun to putt and try to get the break right.  The 3rd hole was the most undulating and unique green I've ever seen in person. It was wild and quirky, just how I like them.

Conditioning - Nuetral - While the fairways were in great shape, the rough areas around the paths were spotty with several dirt patches. The greens were too shaggy and slow which took out alot of the fun of putting on them and watching the big breaks.

Playability - Nuetral - I cannot imagine how in the world this course could be played by a high handicapper or begineer.  There was OB and Hazards on every hole, long forced carries off every tee box, and again forced carries on the approaches in. This would be an absolute nightmare for a begineer. In addition there wasn't a lot of risk reward on the course presented from the tee box. The holes often took driver out of your hand and it was pretty much just find the fairway and avoid trouble.  That being said for a mid or lower handicapper, its much less of a problem.

Enjoyment/Fun Factor/Aesthetics- Thumbs up - The pace of play was good and there were lots of interesting approach shots and chips around the greens to be found.  In addition the views from the tee boxes were simply fantastic.  Even though there was a short stretch on the back that got a tad boring, 15-18 coming home was a load of fun. As a 13 handicapper, the course was very playable for me and a delight to play.

My Doak Rating: 8

Thank You,

Kalen


« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:40:43 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 09:15:33 PM »
The Pics as promised:   ;D

Hole #1 - Par 5
The tee shot requires no more than a 3 wood to the corner of the dogleg


Looking back down the hole from behind the green.  That is Dan Smoot on the left and Andy Troeger on the right.




Hole #2 - Par 4
Tee Shot


Semi-blind approach in for shortish hitters like me:


Dan chipping on to the green from the right hand side:




Hole 3 - Par 3
Drop shot tee shot to a massively heaving and undulating green.


This taken from the front and right of it.  This pic doesn't do justice to the green contouring, it was dramatic.




Hole 4 - Par 5
Beautiful tee shot:


The approach in after laying up.


Another view of the "fortress-like" green complex




Hole 5 - Par 5
This hole twists down the hill. Tee shot


A look if going for the green in 2.


However I chickened out and layed up, here is the approach.




Hole 6 - Par 4
Tee shot from back tees:


Looking back up the hole from behind the green:




Hole 7 - Par 3
Andy on the tee for the long uphill par 3.


The green is set in a massive bowl, once again, this pic does not do justice to it.




Hole 8 - Par 4
Highly elevated tee box to fairway and looming bunkers below:


The approach in




Hole 9 - Par 3
A neat little par 3 carved into the side of the hill.


Looking back at the tee box with greenside bunker in view




Back 9 is coming up.....

Michael Christensen

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 09:26:28 PM »
great pics...looked like a lovely day.....im kicking myself for not cashing in the miles for the trip out!

u mentioned the shaggy greens....is this due to being so early in the season?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 09:27:44 PM »
The Back 9


Hole 10 - Par 4

I forgot to take pictures of this hole, hopefully Andy can fill in for me.  It was nothing memorable.  A elevated tee box playing to a uphill green.



Hole 11 - Par 5
Tee shot


From the fairway:


If you miss the green short, this pot awaits with green in background:




Hole 12 - Par 4
A semi-blind tee shot to a dogleg left fairway:


Approach in:


A view of the green from the left side:




Hole 13 - Par 4
Another downhill par 4


Short approach in:




Hole 14 - Par 4

I once again forgot to take pictures of this hole, but your fortune is good, it was the plainest hole on the course in my opinion. Not missing anything here.



Hole 15 - Par 3
An uphill par 3 that is heavily guarded by a bunker that we coined "The Butt-hole"




Hole 16 - Par 4
Tee shot:


Approach in from the fairway.


The massive green-side bunker:




Hole 17 - Par 3
A beautiful, well protected par 3


Looking back at the hole from 18th tee box:




Hole 18 - Par 5
The "signature hole" for LC.  Here is the tee shot:


If you are going for it in 2, the shot in is mostly blind.


Or you can lay-up to next fairway and have this shot in


A greenside view:


Looking back:

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 09:32:16 PM »
great pics...looked like a lovely day.....im kicking myself for not cashing in the miles for the trip out!

u mentioned the shaggy greens....is this due to being so early in the season?

Michael.  

I would call them shaggy but then again I prefer fast greens.  Most of the munis in my area have faster greens than LC. As to why they were that length? My guess would be so that players would not have the massive breaking putts on some of the holes.  Which is exactly what I love: fast, big-breaking greens to add some spice to the round.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:33:48 PM by Kalen Braley »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 09:37:26 PM »
In july aug and sept, the greens are pretty fast and the downhill putts are all protective putts
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 09:41:19 PM »
Kalen:

Thanks for posting all the pictures, it's by far the most complete look at Lakota Canyon I have ever seen.

You gave it your own "Doak scale" rating of 8, which would equate to it being one of the top 50 or 75 courses in the world.  Do you really think that highly of it?

Andy Troeger

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 09:42:43 PM »
Kalen,
You caught my return from the dead there on #18...all's well that ends well right? :)

I don't know if I'd use the word shaggy for the greens, they were good surfaces, just pretty slow. I would like to see them a little faster, but I do think it bothered you more than me. The greens at Redlands definitely were a better speed.

I do have one picture of #10 I can post once I get a bit more organized!


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 09:48:10 PM »
Kalen:

Thanks for posting all the pictures, it's by far the most complete look at Lakota Canyon I have ever seen.

You gave it your own "Doak scale" rating of 8, which would equate to it being one of the top 50 or 75 courses in the world.  Do you really think that highly of it?

Tom,

Thanks for the feedback, I wanted to give everyone a feel for the place.

As for the rating, I was just honestly trying to evaluate which doak scale rating fit best without considering where that would put it in the world rankings.

7-An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

It seemed to be more than the criteria for number 7 and a better fit for number 8.  If that puts it in the top 50 or 75 in the world, then I can only say I'm not an official rater, just a budding GCA'er.  But just based on description alone, it seemed to match all of the following criteria:

8-One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8’s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 09:52:24 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 09:55:00 PM »
Kalen,
You caught my return from the dead there on #18...all's well that ends well right? :)

I don't know if I'd use the word shaggy for the greens, they were good surfaces, just pretty slow. I would like to see them a little faster, but I do think it bothered you more than me. The greens at Redlands definitely were a better speed.

I do have one picture of #10 I can post once I get a bit more organized!



Andy and Cary,

Yes I think in retrospect "shaggy" carries a bit too harsh of a conotation to it.  So perhaps I should clarify that there was nothing wrong with the greens, they were just on the slow side for my liking, especially when compared to Redlands any many other high end public courses I've played.

Or maybe it was just that 4 foot birdie putt I left short on the 7th hole.   :-[  ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 09:56:48 PM »
Kalen:

So you have it between a 7 and an 8, which is fair enough.  When I get to that point I look up what are the other 7's and 8's for comparison, but I don't know what other courses you've played to get a sense of the Kalen scale.  If you name a few which you would rate in the same vicinity as Lakota Canyon, I'll be glad to tell you what my ratings of those courses were.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 10:00:38 PM »
Kalen,

Thanks for posting the pics. It brought back good memories of my CO trip in 2005. LC is a solid Doak 7 and could  go to a 7.5 in my book. I didn't notice any pics  of the escalators to the tips on 3 and 8. Have they been installed yet? ;D

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 10:03:50 PM »
Kalen:

So you have it between a 7 and an 8, which is fair enough.  When I get to that point I look up what are the other 7's and 8's for comparison, but I don't know what other courses you've played to get a sense of the Kalen scale.  If you name a few which you would rate in the same vicinity as Lakota Canyon, I'll be glad to tell you what my ratings of those courses were.

Tom,

I think thats pretty fair, 7.5 does seem to be a tad more accurate.  I think the balancing act for me is the uniquness of the place.  Granted I'm nowhere close to being as traveled as many on here, but its like nothing else I've ever seen.

As for the other courses, I would only put one maybe two in this group and that is Redlands which I'm hoping to get the review out on tommorow. I've also played Saddle Creek in Copperopolis and that is the only place that was even remotely similar to Lakota Canyon, but would put that as a 7.

Kalen
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:04:29 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 10:06:16 PM »
Kalen:

I have seen both Saddle Creek and Redlands Mesa, but both were after I wrote The Confidential Guide, and I'm not about to share my unpublished ratings of them.  So, I can't help pin it down.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pac Dunes
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 10:06:31 PM »
Hi everyone - I'm posting for the first time, and very fitting that Mr. Doak has recently been a guest.  I have to thank you for your masterpiece in southern Oregon.  Pac Dunes is truly the ultimate golf experience for someone who's soul lies in the artistry of the game.  Thee are very few places in today's game where every player can have the same circumstance and a different answer for the challenge.  Thanks from a native NW player.  

Andy Troeger

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2007, 10:14:30 PM »
Alrighty here's a couple more pictures. Thanks to Kalen for doing such a thorough job of posting his photos. Most of mine are very similar.

View from behind the green at the uphill par 5 4th hole. This one might have been one of the best holes on the trip IMO.


The 6th hole from the blue tee at a slightly different angle.


And a view of the missing 10th hole, taken from #1 tee. The hole is a bit more of a dogleg than it would appear from this view.



I would tend to agree with Steve and give Lakota a 7. Its very good.

Andy Troeger

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2007, 10:18:54 PM »
One other thing I really liked about Lakota was the firmness of the fairways. The ball would really roll out, and the width of the fairways was often enhanced by the mounds on the sides on at least one side of the hole. There were many shots where the easiest shot was the bank it off the side of the canyon walls to avoid having to go over some of the bunkering or other hazards. It would be a fun course to play multiple times, and certainly not just a "WOW" factor course...although that's obviously present too.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 10:30:25 PM »
I've driven by Lakota Canyon on the interstate so I'm not surprised to see the dramatic elevation changes that are featured in the pictures. The elevation changes lends itself to great pictures because of the vistas.

Is it possible to build a golf course on land such as Lakota Canyon that isn't dominated by forced carries and can provide significant ground game options?

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2007, 01:44:06 AM »
This thread is great!

I gotta admit, I also found the pictures quite compelling.  It is awesome you gcaers got together and busted out your cameras.  Pat Mucci will always point out there is nothing like playing a course, but a picture can tell quite a story and the digital age has made cool things possible.

Now...I am not about to thrust Lakota super high on my "need to play" list, but, in my book, Engh has earned a few more kudos by virtue of this thread.

I like how he integrated the wash into the 18th.  The "muscle" bunkers seem a better fit at Lakota than on some of his other courses......which of course I haven't seen in PERSON.......so I'll stop there.

I think Tom Doak is ripe for a trip to Black Mesa and Lakota Canyon...... ;)

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2007, 02:29:58 AM »
Wow, how much of a drop is it from the tee to the fairway on #8?  That looks pretty extreme there...
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Andy Troeger

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2007, 08:41:28 AM »
While I did not think the walk up to #3 tee was that bad, the one up to #8 is a killer. It took me a few seconds to find enough wind to top my tee shot 220 yards down the fairway  :D  Install those escalators for that one!

Bill,
While there are a fair amount of forced carries at Lakota, most of them are not significant in terms of the distances needing to be carried. The up tees are very short, so shorter hitters could move up if necessary, and even from the back tees I don't think there is a carry of more than maybe 150-180 yards. The ground game is more in play than you'd think due to the firmness of the fairways and some of the sideboards that Engh uses with both fairways and greens. They work better here than normally I think because most of them appear to be natural canyon walls. Its more playable than it looks and the slope from the tips is only mid 130's.

Michael,
#18 is a very cool finisher with lots of ways to play it. My only criticism of the hole is that the layup to the right fairway is difficult in itself with the forced carry and all, but the landing area is large enough to be found. #4 is a great uphill par four, and the downhill par threes are fun, if a bit repetitive.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2007, 09:03:35 AM »
Kalen,

How did Engh create so many down hill holes?  Are there any uphill holes that have similar elevation changes?

For a course that gets a "Doak" rating between 7 and 8 there seems to be a lot of neutrals and even a thumbs down.  I see your logic for trying to fit it in that range, but how do you reconcile such a high rating for a course with that many things that don't wow you?

Just based on the pictures I have seen, if Lakota is a 7 or 8 then Black Mesa must be a high 9 or 10.  But again that is just based on photographic evidence.  

Thanks for the look though.  The next time I'm in Colorado, I will try to fit it in if I have the opportunity.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 09:06:39 AM by Chris_Clouser »

Matt_Ward

Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2007, 10:01:41 AM »
Kalen:

Thanks for the pictures and comments.

As someone who has played Lakota Canyon Ranch a few times I offer the following thoughts.

The key aspect that I have always believed about LCR is the vast amount of FUN you get from playing the course and I say that in regards to different types of players.

Engh has provided through LCR a sort of "Indiana Jones" type movie with his golf design there. One will not confuse an Indiana Jones movie with the classic types such Citizen Kane or Gone with the Wind, but for sheer "edge of your seat" anticipation with what will happen when turning the next corner / facing the next shot -- LCR does deliver the kind of WOW sensations that often most golfers crave.

I have a few issues with the course -- the quick turning point on #1 is a bit too severe -- a bit more of a bend would add to the thought process on whether to shape a shot around the corner -- ditto the limited landing space that exists if one does in fact cut the corner.

The green dimensions are good but at times Engh provides the catcher mitt bowl shape types that feed nearly all types of shots back to the center. Doing something once is fine -- repeating it over and over again can be overkill. No doubt many people will not share this feeling but often times that comes about because so few people have played a wide smattering of his designs as I have.

You can also see this situation with the bowl-like fairway shapes that sometimes receive an overplay by Engh. Instead of the fairways running even with the surrounding landscape -which would create possibilities for balls to run through into trouble. This formula of elevating the sides up can often be repetitive and create an "equalization" process that fails to differentiate quality shotmaking.

On the flip side -- Engh can often provide thought-provoking greens that are simply first rate stuff. The par-3 3rd is one great example and as was poined out by Kalen it is near impossible to really comprehend the amount of pitch on the green through a simple photo -- being there is the only sure fire way to really grasp the detail.

The 4th hole is also top shelf stuff -- a dynamic tee shot into a narrowing landing area and the green hidden above a hill on the left side. This hole does play u-p-H-I-L-L and is one of the finest par-5 holes I have seen from Engh. The green can be reached in two blows -- I have hit it with as little as a 5-iron -- but the shot must fly over the tree line on the left side and be long enough to reach a green that can repel all but the finest of plays -- check out the false front at th every beginning of the green on one of the photos provided. Again, the photos only tell a bit of the qualities the hole presents.

A key element that dovetails with the 4th is Engh's considerable wherewithal to design stellar par-5 holes that offer so much on the risk and reward front. I have always believed this is one of his strongest suits and at LCR you see this front and center. Each of the holes -- minus the so-so 1st hole as previously mentioned -- is well done.

The other aspect at LCR is the need to properly position your approach shots --  notably on all the par-3 holes. Here again -- simply hitting the green guarantees nothing. The 3rd is a stellar hole -- ditto others such as #15 and #17. What's interesting is that the downhill nature of #17 has been replicated at other Engh layouts -- including Blackstone, GC at Redlands Mesa and Hawktree, to name three quick examples.

The lone real weakness at LCR is the absence of any really superb long par-4's. I like the par-4 12th -- but much of the demand comes from the tee shot and the center-placed fairway bunker encountered. It's a good hole but the approach shot is fairly pedestrian. The best par-4 on the course, IMHO, is the 16th. Engh gives just enough length so that driver is the play for most players. The green is well defended and I commend his wherewithal to angle the green so multiple good pin placements can be provided.

There's much more to add from my various times at LCR. As I said at the outset -- for sheer fun -- the golf course is a joy to play. Anyone venturing along the I-70 corridor through Colorado would be wise to stop in New Castle and play this gem. It's very reasonable on the price front when compared to other nearby courses.

P.S. Andy -- I have a friend of mine that made a bet with me that he could run up and down the tee at #8 five times and still make a par from the back tee. We have yet to return to the club and see who is right on that one !!! I told him that by time he runs up the hill a 3rd time the EMS folks will be on hand to carry him out of there. ;D




astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2007, 10:11:49 AM »
I agree that the amphitheatre greens happen too often in Engh's architecture and often fail to differentiate good shots from indifferent.  An additional problem is that if the rough is too sticky on the downslope of these bowls, a severe downhill stance is the result, and it is often impossible to chip/pitch it close.

I also find the squiggly bunkers too penal.  Half the time, the stance/lie is near unplayable and its all you can do just to get it out.   A good recovery shot is not possible.  One could end up steering aroung these bunkers hitting safe, boring shots.  An additional problem with these bunkers is that they have problems at Fossil Trace keeping sand in them, and I noticed a lot of the bunkers at Redlands Mesa had very little sand in them.  Is it something about these style of bunkers that makes it hard to keep sand in, or was it just coincidence?

Having said that, LC and RM are very good and fun courses.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lakota Canyon Course Review
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2007, 10:53:28 AM »
Kalen,

How did Engh create so many down hill holes?  Are there any uphill holes that have similar elevation changes?

For a course that gets a "Doak" rating between 7 and 8 there seems to be a lot of neutrals and even a thumbs down.  I see your logic for trying to fit it in that range, but how do you reconcile such a high rating for a course with that many things that don't wow you?

Just based on the pictures I have seen, if Lakota is a 7 or 8 then Black Mesa must be a high 9 or 10.  But again that is just based on photographic evidence.  

Thanks for the look though.  The next time I'm in Colorado, I will try to fit it in if I have the opportunity.

Chris the property is pretty extreme.  I think a better question would be, especially as it relates to the front 9 is how did Engh get all those holes in there.  I did like the creativity he used to get #3 and # 7 into the front 9.

As far as my Doak rating of 8, I've received a lot of good feedback and Chris I believe you provide the best comment in that how can it be that high with so man "nuetral" categories, and I belive you are right.  But I am yet a young grass-hopper and am learning as I go along.  :) 7-7.5 does seem like a better fit...

I will admit that I was being overly critical in many of the categories.  I didn't like the repetitive nature of the drop in fairways, but for most its probably no big deal.  I thought the greens were slow, but for most not a big deal.  I thought the course would be a bear for high handicappers, but for me it was no big deal.  Ultimately I was trying to be as ojective as possible in my rating, but I guess thats where the classic mistake is made because it is subjective.

Either way, I completely agree with Matt and others here.  The course is fun, fun, fun with only one small lull on the back during a 3 hole stretch.  15 thru 18 was a great finishing stretch with some very cool holes.

I too need to get to NM and play Black Mesa as well.

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