Shinny, NGLA, Sebonack, and the ratings game

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't think that any of the Bandon Courses suffer because of their proximity to one another, do you ?

Patrick:  please. This forum proves that in spades... Bandon Dunes was wildly praised when it first opened, and while it was the only course there.  Then along came Pacific Dunes and all of a sudden it sucked.  The guilty parties know who they are.  Bandon Dunes was most definitely NOT helped by being trumped by it's brother.

You're confused..... again.

That's because Pacific Dunes was regarded as being superior to Bandon Dunes.

I don't think anyone has yet to claim that Sebonack is superior to NGLA and SH.

NGLA and SH are two Icons in American Golf, status that wasn't held by BD.

The lure of the Bandon Golf Courses is their number and quality, coupled with their unique personalities[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I am not confused at all.  

As you state, the situation at Bandon is quite different than that at Sebonack - so what's the point of citing it here?  'Tis you who are confused even bringing it into this conversation, for exactly the reasons you state now.

And if you take the situation at Bandon separately - as I was in replying - then you are very wrong - Bandon Dunes was most definitely hurt (ratings-wise) by the arrival of its big brother.

No?

TH

[JESII]

But Pat...


If Sebonack were in a neighborhood in which it was clearly the big fish, would it receive greater acclaim than it will in its actual neighborhood?

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick:

I am not confused at all.  

As you state, the situation at Bandon is quite different than that at Sebonack - so what's the point of citing it here?  'Tis you who are confused even bringing it into this conversation, for exactly the reasons you state now.

And if you take the situation at Bandon separately - as I was in replying - then you are very wrong - Bandon Dunes was most definitely hurt (ratings-wise) by the arrival of its big brother.

No?

TH

Huck,

Why not go to Golfweek.com and check out how wrong you are about Bandon Dunes.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bandon's ranking per Golf Digest since the beginning:

Bandon Dunes, Bandon, Ore.
David McLay Kidd, 1999
Ranked for 8 years.
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2001-2002) - Fifth 10 - No. 41
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2003-2004) - Seventh 10 - No. 62
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2005-2006) - Third 10 - No. 28
America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses (2007-2008) - Fourth 10 - No. 31

It seems to have IMPROVED dramatically these last few times...

[Tom Huckaby]

Well hush my mouth.  I guess I was quite wrong as pertains to Golf Digest.  But those wise men and women who do that ranking wouldn't fall prey to this anyway.

Golfweek, I'd be surprised if I'm wrong there.  I thought it started high and decreased over time.  But if so - and no I haven't checked, well then hush my mouth there also.

Imperfect am I, yes.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Bandon Dunes jumped from 9th to 6th last year when the publication went from America's Best to Golfweek's Best.  Maybe Golfweek likes it more than America does.

[Patrick_Mucci]

But Pat...


If Sebonack were in a neighborhood in which it was clearly the big fish, would it receive greater acclaim than it will in its actual neighborhood?

JES II,

Let me answer your question this way.

Suppose that Sebonack and Shinnecock existed for decades and that NGLA was introduced last year.

Do you think that NGLA would be harmed by the presence of it's neighbors ?

Now suppose that Sebonack and NGLA existed for decades and that Shinnecock was introduced last year.

Do you think that Shinnecock would be harmed by the presence of its neighbors.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well hush my mouth.  I guess I was quite wrong as pertains to Golf Digest.  But those wise men and women who do that ranking wouldn't fall prey to this anyway.

Golfweek, I'd be surprised if I'm wrong there.  I thought it started high and decreased over time.  But if so - and no I haven't checked, well then hush my mouth there also.

Imperfect am I, yes.

Tom,

Before you hush your mouth, please utter the words,
"Pat, you were right, and, I was wrong.
Thanks.

[JESII]

Pat,

Let me answer your answer with a question as well...

Do you believe in the big fish / small pond theory?

I think the golf courses are the golf courses, and I am not involved or invested in the ranking process...but...in my own personal opinion, I would imagine a course that stands out on its own (geographically) will be viewed in that context and therefore likely to benefit (in a ranking process) while a course in the setting Sebonack has entered will be viewed with NGLA and Shinnecock in perspective...and by the way, I bet that is exactly how the protagonists at Sebonack would like it...in that respect they have my admiration for trying. I Of the lot, I have only played Shinnecock (other than one round at Maidstone) so am ineligible to compare.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

No problem:

Pat, you were right, and I was wrong.

See, it's not so hard.

You ought to give a try sometimes.  Lord knows you have plenty of opportunities.

TH

ps - I am 100% right about the perception of Bandon Dunes in this forum, btw.  I am just pleased to find that did not translate to the actual rankings.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

If only one course existed at Bandon, irrespective of which one, don't you think its lure would be diminished ?

Don't you feel that the variety and quality of the golf courses contribute to the collective popularity of the site ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

The lure of Bandon was pretty large even when it held just the one course.  But obviously the lure is larger to more people now that there are multiple courses.

And I do also feel that the quality of the golf courses contribute to the collective popularity of the site.

BUT... I also do feel that at least to some people, the perception of the worth of the first course is diminished when a "superior" neighbor is built.  That has certainly happened in this forum.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Then how do you explain Burger King and other fast food restaurants locating themselves near a newly opened MacDonald's and vice versa ?

[Tom Huckaby]

They don't care if they're better, they just want a piece of the pie.   And perhaps Mr. Keiser has that in mind to some extent.  But that's not what we're talking about here, are we?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

The lure of Bandon was pretty large even when it held just the one course.  But obviously the lure is larger to more people now that there are multiple courses.

And I do also feel that the quality of the golf courses contribute to the collective popularity of the site.

BUT... I also do feel that at least to some people, the perception of the worth of the first course is diminished when a "superior" neighbor is built.  That has certainly happened in this forum.

Isn't that inherent in the logic once you introduce the word
"superior" ?   ? [/color]
TH

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I don't think Sebonack will have any trouble with the rankings. I know a lawyer who is a  Golf Digest rater, and apparently there are 30 of him and he's on some big panal.(not really sure how that whole thing goes.) He's down in North Carolina and makes a a trip up to Long Island every year. We were having a conversation and he was so interested in Sebonack and everything involving it. I think this guy already has the golf course rated and he hasn't even seen the place.

The location of the golf course just makes it that much more attractive. Especially to a lawyer in North Carolina.


Personally for me I think that the location of Sebonack hurts my view of the golf course. Everytime I'm there I wish I was at National. But that pretty much goes for every round of golf I play in the hamptons.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

You're missing the point.  The introduction of the superior course diminished the perception of the prior course - and not relatively, but absolutely.  And that should not be.  Just because a new course gets built nearby is seen as superior doesn't mean the first course is any less great on its own.  If it was great before the new course was built, that shouldn't change.  But in the minds of many, it did.  And I for one find that odd.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

But, the title of this thread is: "Shinny, NGLA, Sebonack ....."

It would aslo appear that Bandon Dunes has moved UP in the rankings, NOT DOWN.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Asked and answered, on both accounts - see several posts back.

But if you want to go in circles, I can cover each again if you'd like....

1.  You brought up Bandon, a totally different set of facts than the LI issue.  I've explained already my point.  

2. GD ratings seem not to have been effected, but I really believe Golfweek was to some extent.  I can't find a way to check, but BD is #6 Modern now, and I believe it was at least a bit higher when it first came out.  In any case, either way, rankings be damned, the perception IN THIS FORUM most definitely has gone as I decribe for at least some participants.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Huck, #6 modern is still great don't you think?

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck, #6 modern is still great don't you think?

Heck yeah.  But if it was once #2, then moved down to #6, that would be enough to make my point.

And I've admitted already I'm wrong about how this has gone in terms of ratings anyway - Patrick just wants to draw blood or something.  What I'm right about is how it's gone for some pundits in here.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I have no interest in drawing blood.

The difference between # 2 and # 6 is probably thousanths of a decimal point.

As to your referencing of this site, I think it's safe to say that Tom Doak enjoys "MFN" status.

The big difference between NGLA, SH and S and BT, BD and PD is the public versus private nature of the adjacent enclaves.

The addition of Pacific Dunes didn't have a substantive negative effect on Bandon Dunes, if anything, the addition enhanced all courses.

Irrespective of the outcome, ratings wise, I think "Old MacDonald" will enhance the collective of courses and not harm any of them.

Sebonack lives beneath two giant shadows.
Had it not had its own, unique personality, it would have suffrered by comparison and location.  It's uniqueness spared it that consequence, and, I feel the same way about the courses at Bandon.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I can live with all of that, and in fact agree with all of it, except:

The addition of Pacific Dunes didn't have a substantive negative effect on Bandon Dunes, if anything, the addition enhanced all courses.

I believe that to be true for the most part, but definitely NOT true in the perception of several pundits in here.

So I'd say we're close enough.  No blood necessary.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Sebonack lives beneath two giant shadows.
Had it not had its own, unique personality, it would have suffrered by comparison and location.  It's uniqueness spared it that consequence, and, I feel the same way about the courses at Bandon.

This was my concern (like anyone cares what I think), and Patrick addressed it nicely. Shinny and NGLA cast two HUGE shadows of greatness and I certainly wouldn't want Sebonack's ratings to be hurt by this. I am glad Sebonack has a personality of its own and will stand on its own merits.