Shinny, NGLA, Sebonack, and the ratings game

[Jim Franklin]

I know most here could care less about each publication's ratings, but, since the general golfing public sure likes it, please bear with me.

Since Sebonack is up for Golf Digest's Best New for 2007, do you think it will be hurt or helped being so close to two of the top courses in the world?

[Tom Huckaby]

Hurt.

Those few who will be able to play it will judge it lesser then they might otherwise due to proximity of those two incredible courses.  Call it the "Lake Merced" phenomenon.

[John Kavanaugh]

I just hope that the obtrusive infastructure built by Sebonack on top of NGLA doesn't do the reverse and hurt Nationals ranking.

As far as best new goes I think Ballyneal already beat out Sebonack in the 2006 issue for Travel and Leisure.

[Tom_Doak]

Huck:

I agree with you that its proximity to Shinnecock and National will probably hurt it a bit, although some people might be wowed just to be in the neighborhood, and rate it more highly for that reason.

However, I will say that it is not in the same category as Lake Merced.

[Jim Franklin]

I think it may be hurt too, but certainly hope anyone that plays them all would be realistic. I think Friar's Head may have been hurt a few years ago due to its proximity. I think Black Rock won that year and there is nothing really there to compare it to.

[Tom Huckaby]

TD:

That could well happen also - I hadn't thought about that effect.  But... I assumed the course didn't NEED that kinda help.  

Lake Merced (at least to me) is just an example of a pretty damn good course that gets poo-poohed because of what it's near.  I can see at least a little of that happening with Sebonack.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

It's not just the proximity of the courses, but the people doing the comparisons.  Some of the panelists who get to a new course in Idaho haven't seen very many great courses before.  That is much more unlikely of anyone who gets to play Friars Head or Sebonack; even if they aren't playing National the next morning, they have probably seen a lot more of the great courses back east.

[Jim Franklin]

Tom -

That is very true and one of the great problems with this method. I certainly saw this when we had our first Summit in Orlando when some of the panelists gave Grand Cypress a 9.5 for some of the categories. I have given out 2 scores of 9.5 or higher since I have been doing this and Grand Cypress wasn't one of them .

[Tom Huckaby]

That's a hell of a good point also.  Might not all of this be moot given the small number of raters who are gonna get to see Sebonack, and who they will be?

Joe-Schmoe me might be effected by these things... the type of guy who gets to play Sebonack likely is playing both the neighbors also, with attendant experience as well.  Can't see that he gets effected either way.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I don't see any real harm coming the way for Sebonack. Different year will produce different results. If anything does happen -- I see Sebonack replacing Maidstone as the 3rd member of the famed troika.

Jim, the issue of "cros comparisons" is the major weakness with consensus / collaborative voting for the placement of courses. When you have person "X" only providing numbers for courses west of the Mississippi and peron "Y" only providing for number east of the Mississippi the idea that the understanding of what the numbers means and how they should be allocated makes for a number of times when particular courses can be overrated and in other instances underrated.

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks Matt. I know one of the prerequisites to be on the panel was the ability to travel at your own expense. At least that is what it seemed to me so I would hope most of the panelists are able to see a diverse canvas of courses. I know I will be seeing some in the east, south, west, and mountains this year.

The only one I do not think I will be able to see this year is Pronghorn that I really wanted to see.

I only hope Sebonack gets a fair shake because it is in with some lofty neighbors. I can also see Sebonack replacing Maidstone due to proximity, but can you really replace Maidstone?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

In my mind, Maidstone has been the beneficiary of being located so close to the other two heavyweights. Candidly, I only see the dunes holes at Maidstone as being so special.

Sebonack has all the elements and will likely only get better and better as time passes.

I know that can be a bit much for some who see my preceding statement as being nothing more than presumptious on my past. I really enjoyed Sebonack and I think others will share the same thoughts.

Maidstone will continue to receive positive reviews from those who see it as being among the nation's top 100 courses -- I don't share the sentiment. That doesn't mean I don't think the course has some special moments -- just not enough special moments to merit such a high placement IMHO.

Jim, the problem with nationwide ratings is that you need people who are up-to-date on what is happening. Too many panelists only make one swing through an area of the country and base their thoughts on that snapshot in time. Things have certainly changed but often times the minds of those entrusted with ratings stays focused on the past -- far too often the bias is against new areas of the country where quaility golf design is now taking root -- see Black Mesa in NM, as just one example.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,

I have been told that the infrastructure of Sebonack is intruding on the beauty of National...Is this true or not?

[John Kavanaugh]

I know that if I felt that Sebonack has rudely placed maintenance barns, cottages and or roads in a manner that has harmed her neighbor I would mark the course down.  Does this sound fair?

[John Kavanaugh]

Whew...I see nothing gained rating wise for any of these courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Had Sebonack NOT had its own unique personality I think it would have been hurt.

Any attempt at mimicry would have had a negative effect.

I don't think that proximity to NGLA and SH will be a detriment.

However, comparisons as to the use and location of the parking lots of the three courses might have a negative impact.

Sebonack is vastly different from both SH and NGLA, so I don't see any bias, except from those that think that so many good courses shouldn't be so close together.

It's a rare, if not wildly unique situation, one that in concept, is what Mike Keiser attempted to accomplish at Bandon.

I don't think that any of the Bandon Courses suffer because of their proximity to one another, do you ?

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: How about Dismal River being next to Sand Hills - or for that matter how about Ballyneal which I know is not near SH but still it will not doubt always be compared with SH.  In those cases there are definite similarities but Sebonack is not going to be compared to NGLA or Shinnecock - those courses, which are very close to each other, are never compared.  They are not similar and neither is Sebonack.  

The greater question is what do the raters appreciate - when they fail to recognize the greatness of FH, you don't know what to expect. I think the bigger issue with Sebonack is how people look at a course with a unique collaboration - you might say that it is unprecendented - some might say it didn't work just to prove how smart they think they are.  Is it better than what JN or TD would have done on his own - is that the test which should be applied - is that fair - I don't know what the answer is.  

[Steve Lapper]

I can also see Sebonack replacing Maidstone due to proximity, but can you really replace Maidstone?

Maidstone was already replaced a few years back.

I agree with Pat & Matt, Sebonack has its own personality and its own style and will likely only get better over time. Enough to break into the top three, perhaps?  I'd be far from sure of that. That old potato farm up in Baiting Hollow is maturing rather wonderfully and just might be a mite bit more interesting as well.

[TEPaul]

I love NGLA but I sure don't feel sorry for it that Sebonack was built basically on top of it. NGLA had the clear opportunity to buy that land at least three times over the years and it didn't. What'd NGLA expect---that Sabin would live forever or that the Electrical Union would own the land forever? C.B could've and should've bought that land when he started NGLA because it was part of the land for sale. It's a case of three strikes and your out, in my opinion.

[Tom Huckaby]

I don't think that any of the Bandon Courses suffer because of their proximity to one another, do you ?

Patrick:  please. This forum proves that in spades... Bandon Dunes was wildly praised when it first opened, and while it was the only course there.  Then along came Pacific Dunes and all of a sudden it sucked.  The guilty parties know who they are.  Bandon Dunes was most definitely NOT helped by being trumped by it's brother.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lets not toss Friars Head out just yet. I think Sebonack and FH will  be part of  a great debate for years to come over which one if not both belong where in the 1st to 4th place standings in the neighborhood. Steve Lapper noted that above

[John Kirk]

I think Sebonack will fare well in the ratings game, because of its great publicity, its location, and its enormous cost.  But this reflects my own bias and prejudice about how the winners are selected.  It also depends on how important ratings are to club management.  Will Sebonack bend over backwards to treat raters to spectacular playing conditions, free lodging and meals?  I believe all the little non-golf perquisites have to subconsciuosly influence the raters, whether you like it or not.  That's the way modern marketing works.  

Friar's Head is not in Golf Digest's top 100 courses, and I doubt they give a damn.  Friar's Head is my kind of place, and would almost certainly make my top 100, if I had the pleasure to play them all.

I get two cracks at Sebonack later this year, which is nice, since I admire very few courses the first time around.  It is well known that I enjoy Tom's style, and expect I will have a high opinion of the course.  I took a tour of the course last year with one of the membership representatives.  I also spoke briefly to the superintendent.  Both were good guys: serious, happy, unpretentious.

I do not expect that I will like Sebonack more than Ballyneal.  At least one common perception bias is in play.  We'll call it the member course bias.

[Alex_Wyatt]

What is likely to hurt Sebonack in the ratings game is not the 3 courses so often grouped together on Eastern Long Island, but the 3 visionaries involved. The best vision Mr. Pascucci, by all accounts a terrific guy, could have had would have been to use 1 architect. I think we all know which one would have been preferred by this forum, but I don't think Apple and Microsoft could build a good device together, whatever your taste, and I am an iPod guy myself.

[Jeff Evagues]

Maidstone is a wonderful layout but I believe Sebonack has passed it already. I plan on seeing Friars Head later this year.

[Jim Franklin]

I think Sebonack will fare well in the ratings game, because of its great publicity, its location, and its enormous cost.  But this reflects my own bias and prejudice about how the winners are selected.  It also depends on how important ratings are to club management.  Will Sebonack bend over backwards to treat raters to spectacular playing conditions, free lodging and meals?  I believe all the little non-golf perquisites have to subconsciuosly influence the raters, whether you like it or not.  That's the way modern marketing works.  

I certainly hope this isn't true, but I can't really believe it doesn't happen. Although I do know that I am not receiving any free lodging or meals, but am treated like a respected guest. I am not complaining mind you, but really hope the course's quality is the main topic that is rated and not what the rater receives in perks. I guess they call it integrity.