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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
After an overnight flight from SF I hit the ground running in New Zealand. First stop was Paraparaumu Beach where  I joined Scott Coan and his friends for an interesting  round.
   The ground at PB has nice movement to it due to the dunesland it was built on. You see some fantastic land on the drive up from Wellington not too far from PB. I asked the guys about it, but don't  remember why the land wasn't used  for a golf course.
   The first tee shot of the day sort of sets the tone for what you will encounter a number of times in  the round. The drive is pretty much blind due to the diagonal nature of the shot to the land. Most of the dune formations seem to run parallel to one another on this property. Thus a diagonal drive crosses over one ridge that blocks your view of the landing area proper. You still have a pretty good idea of where you are trying to go. I tend to like semi-blind shots because you still know where you are trying to go, but there is enough uncertainty introduced that it is hard to commit to the shot at hand.
   Once you get up to the green sites there isn't a ton of movement to  the greens, but you have a nice mix of greens that you can run shots into, and greens that have fall-offs or  are raised up so there are a variety of demands for your approach shots.
    The second hole here is a par 3 and the challenge gets stepped up considerably. There are dropoffs  on both sides of  the green and it is a skinny target with a mid to long iron depending on the tees you play. This par 3 set the tone for the entire trip Down Under. Virtually every par 3 is a daunting test in NZ/Aus.
    The next hole of note was #6 which is a short par 4, that has nicely rumpled ground in the landing area and the green is deeper than it is wide with a standard tier cutting across the middle of the green. The interesting thing about this hole is how once your angle of  approach starts to move away to the left or right, how much more difficult the pitch becomes if you haven't laid  back to give yourself a full shot.
   #10 is another shortish par 4. There is a dune down the right and a stream down the left. The hole effectively bends left to right a  little and it takes a bold drive to get close to the green. The green is narrow and very deep and judging how far to play your approach is difficult.
   #11 par 4, a longer version of the previous hole,  so this one is even tougher.
   #13 par 4  Straightaway tee shot out onto a plateau, then the ground falls away before rising steeply back up to another long narrowish green. Coming up short would be reminiscent of #9 at Augusta.
  #14 par 3   One of the few downhill par 3's we saw on the trip. Mostly notable for the kids who came walking across the course, and ran up to steal one of the balls on the green, then disappeared into the bush before we could stop them.
   The course steps up the challenge at this point as you begin to head back home.
  #15 par 4 Blind tee shot between dunes, then an approach to a raised green that also falls off pretty sharply on the left (don't ask me how I know) :P
   #16 yet another daunting par 3 to a long narrow green that sets up on a diagonal to accept a righty's draw. Duneslope on the left and drop off right and short.
   #17 One of the best holes in NZ. A very tough par 4 with a split fairway that actually gives you two  realistic options off the tee. What is so interesting about this one  is that the left fairway is higher than the right. The right is very inviting, but gives a poor angle into the green. The left is semi-blind (you might not even notice it the first time around) since it is raised up. Also, your drive  comes into the left fairway on a diagonal so it isn't too hard to  go through the fairway on the left.The left option gives you an approach right down the neck of the green and is still a demanding shot. If memory serves this is the biggest green on the course. Overall from a driving perspective it is probably the best split fairway I have ever seen.
   The finishing hole is a pretty straightforward par 5 that bends left to right, and it is pretty easy to drive the ball through the fairway left and into some bunkers that certainly qualify as hazards. You'll not be getting home in two from one of them.
  All in all a great course to open the trip with.
Doak scale: 7
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Keep up the posts Ed, GREAT STUFF!
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Mark_F

This par 3 set the tone for the entire trip Down Under. Virtually every par 3 is a daunting test in NZ/Aus.

An interesting comment.  Is one therefore to surmise that many courses you play (in the USA???) have undemanding par threes?

Why is this?  Bland and/or unimaginative greens?  The bunkers? The size of the greens?

Is it only on modern courses, or older ones too?

Many of the courses I have played in the UK (Porthcawl, Burnham, Silloth, Macrihanish, Dornoch)all have a pretty good set of par threes, and it is only Sunningdale Old that I can remember having some pretty ordinary ones.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
The ground at PB has nice movement to it due to the dunesland it was built on. You see some fantastic land on the drive up from Wellington not too far from PB. I asked the guys about it, but don't  remember why the land wasn't used  for a golf course.

Ed,

I too drooled when I saw that land. Right on the shore. Undulating but not oo undulating. Dramatic, subject to the wind, and 100% sand. Mark G from PB knows about it. From memory it's a national park. Sure would make for an amazing course.

Keep up the good work. Looking fwd to the Aussie posts.

Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,
    I wouldn't say that the par 3's are uniformly uninteresting in the US, but you generally don't get sets of par 3's that are as routinely challenging and interesting as I saw on my trip.
   I have been thinking  about this some more while changing diapers today. During our trip we played mostly the best of golf  that is on offer down there, and we saw an amazing array of par 3's. However, thinking about it some more and  concentrating on some of my favorite courses in the US, the sets of par 3's you see are quite good. Pasatiempo, Kingsley Club, Sand Hills quickly come to mind. Your example of Burnham and Berrow in the UK is an excellent example of a course with really solid par 3's
   
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 01:33:29 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed,
Great to see the start of the course reviews from your trip.  Looking forward to the rest.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
This par 3 set the tone for the entire trip Down Under. Virtually every par 3 is a daunting test in NZ/Aus.

An interesting comment.  Is one therefore to surmise that many courses you play (in the USA???) have undemanding par threes?

Why is this?  Bland and/or unimaginative greens?  The bunkers? The size of the greens?

Is it only on modern courses, or older ones too?
 


Ed's comment is spot on.  Australian par threes demand very accurate iron shots due to the firm ground, the presence of wind, turtle backed greens and difficult bunkers.  I made a number of doubles.

In the US, generalizations are always somewhat innacurate.  Nonetheless, as a rough rule, the ground is softer, the greens more receptive and the bunkers more manicured.  Par threes tend to be longer and, on new courses, almost always feature water.

I'm not sure I score better on the US par threes. I do know I prefer the Australian versions.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
This par 3 set the tone for the entire trip Down Under. Virtually every par 3 is a daunting test in NZ/Aus.
An interesting comment.  Is one therefore to surmise that many courses you play (in the USA???) have undemanding par threes?

I think only having played the cream of the crop in Australia gives one a skewed view of the comparative quality of the par 3s in AUS vs. the USA.   I agree with Ed that overall they were generally a strong group at most every course we played  with my favorite sets being at Royal Melbourne, St. Andrews Beach, Barnbougle and Yarra Yarra.  

Playing so many of the Sandbelt courses in such a short time has caused some of the three-pars to run together in my mind so that I do remember an awful lot of mid-iron par 3s with fronting and flanking bunkers.  It also may be because I ended at Victoria which had 4 par 3s that looked an awful lot alike.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:03:47 PM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mark_F

Ed/David,

Maybe courses in the USA make it up somewhere else.  I am sure you noticed that par fives are not the strength of the Sandbelt.  

Do the US equivalents generally have strong sets of par fives?

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,
   Good question. I would say there are a great number of courses that have par 5's that aren't particularly interesting here. You just bash your second shot as far as you can as there is usually no reason not to try to get up near the green. Except for the holes that are overly reliant on water of course.
    Once you start going around and seeing the better courses in the US you begin to see how good a par 5 can be. Plainfield was one of the first courses I went to where I was amazed that I had to consider each shot carefully on the par 5's. Rustic Canyon has 5 of them and each one poses interesting challenges (with the exception of #9 on the second shot IMO). There are many more examples. Not to mention the par 5's we saw down on the Mornington Peninsula that were quite enjoyable.
   And I seem to remember there being a pretty good par 5 somewhere up near Sydney. ;)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 02:16:35 AM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
I found Paraparaumu a course that offers a bit more than first impressions might indicate. The setting is not particularly compelling and the course does not have huge aesthetic appeal, but as Ed describes there are many interesting holes. I thought you slightly undersold the 13th Ed - visually that hole stays in my mind the most. And the last short hole was utterly daunting! It felt like you had about a 15% chance of hitting the green.

Looking forward to hearing about the rest of your travels.....

Philip

Terry Thornton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed,
fine writings, looking forward to the next instalment

It also may be because I ended at Victoria which had 4 par 3s that looked an awful lot alike.
David,
I'd agree with you on the last 3 par 3's (#7, 14 & 16) but I believe #4 stands out on its own, away from RM's beauties my fave par 3 of the sandbelt. Unlike the other 3 all the putting surface is visible from the tee. The green is also aligned towards the tee moreso than the others, esp 7 & 16 which sit across the line, even more than NSW #2 does I'd think.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Philip,
    I didn't undersell #13, I'm just no Darwin. :) A really good hole and that end of the property has some great up and down movement. I think I would have had more to say about 13 if there was more going on up on the green, but I remember it being narrowish and deep. The salient feature to me was the dropoff in front.
    I would be interested to hear your description of the hole.
   
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed you don't want to be be testing my memory after 18 months! I am sorry I don't have my pictures to hand - i will post one if i can find them. My recollection is rather simple - quite dramatic mountrains in the background, and a fairway with a lot of interesting movement. I think the backdrop perhaps made it a more visual hole than many of the others. I don't recall any other holes going in quite that same direction.

Looking forward to your thoughts on some of the other courses.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
On to Cape Kidnappers. A big thank you to Ash, Philip, and Scott for convincing me to play CK. I am very tight with money and I just couldn't get my wallet/head around paying 3 times as much for CK as Barnbougle (or anything else I would see on our trip for that matter). However, having made the decision to play I can say it is worth the time and effort to get there to see this course. It is an outstanding course, but I think they are overreaching at their pricepoint, especially when you consider that most golfers Down Under consider a round of golf above $50 highway robbery. So I won't say it is worth the money to play the course, but by the time you add in the decompression factor, having the course literally to yourself, the setting, and Jeremy the consummate professional there, I could part with that kind of money willingly.....well, almost willingly ;). Thanks to the kindness of others I didn't have to feel that pain.
   I played the course on a glorious sunny day with just a light breeze blowing. I was happy to not have the gale-force winds that seem to blow through on occasion. I experienced that wind later in the trip. Up front I will say that this is not a course where a beginner comes to learn the game. There are some daunting shots to be played at CK. You will not foozle your way around this course. :)
   The course opens up away from the fingers of land and ocean that you see in all the pix of CK. So you sort of expect to be let down by the opening holes until you get out to the water. No need to worry, the Renaissance guys open things up with a great par 4 that sets the tone for the day. The hole moves left to right, although it almost feels like a double dogleg functionally. Ideally you would try to drive down the right side, but of course there are bunkers there, and being the first hole of the day you don't want to be overly aggressive so you play down the middle, which then makes your approach shot that much harder and longer. As you stand over your approach shot you see the cluster of bunkers guarding the left side of the green. However, if you pay attention throughout most of the course the RGD team gives you a bailout. Which is a very good thing given the visual intimidation of this course. Of course, the bailout will leave you with a tough up and down it seems from what I remember. One other thing I found interesting was that these greens are toned down a little from what I am used to seeing on a Doak course. More sweeping movements, than intricate internal contours. I would guess this is because they realized that you were going to work so hard to get on the green given the terrain and normal winds that there needed to be some room to breathe. You can still easily three-putt if you put yourself in the wrong place, so don't start thinking I'm calling these greens flat. Gotta run, more later.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mark_F

Ed,

I hope you have more of this.

There has been previous opinion about Cape Kidnappers that it has a high scenic value, but is a bit lacking in real architectural quality.

Is this so?

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,
   I think the course can lull you into thinking there isn't much going on architecturally, because the aesthetic value of the whole experience is so high. I felt the course itself was better than I expected it to be.

   On to the second hole, a nice par 5 that moves a little left to right off the tee (moderate forced carry). From there into the green the hole is pretty straight away. I really like how the area where second shots for mortals will lay up rises up and is flanked by bunkers that pinch that area in. This really makes you think about whether you want to try to get up on top to have a good look at the hole, or lay back far enough to take the bunkers out of play, but then have a blind approach. The green is bunkered front right, so a long second will want to play left to be safe. However the green runs away from you (doesn't look it) due to the lay of the land, so if you get pin high left you will have to be pretty surgical to ease your ball down there to the hole.
  #3 par 3   The hole looks pretty daunting (I'll be wearing that word out) from the tee, with the dropoff left into oblivion. The fronting bunkers do a good job of giving the illusion that anything short is dead, but the bunkers more to the right are well short of the green so you can bail out right and not be in the sand. Yet again this will give you a tough up and down if you bail right here. This green is pretty big and has a fair amount of movement so any par here is well-earned.
   #4 par 5   Another forced carry off the tee, probably the most intimidating of the round and the landing area is blind. There is some sort of dead tree or post to use as a guide. The aggressive drive down the left gives you the best look at getting up near the green in two. However that line down the left is on land that is sloping a bit to the left, so I don't know how often someone would try to get over there. The second shot feels pretty tough because the land and bunkering pinch in from the right side and it gets narrower as you get closer to the green. It is a pretty scary looking second shot, but you don't want to lay back any more than you have to because the ground is rising up to the hole from like 170m in. There is a front to back tier here that is pretty testing to get to a back pin, and the lay of the land takes shots that come up short off to the right towards a ravine (your ball won't roll out of play, just off the side of the green depending on where you land).
   Now you are coming out to where you begin to see the "agua".#5 par 4 is another really good hole with a fairway that has a central bunker complex to get you thinking. Down the right is the tighter tee shot, but will give you the best look at the green I believe. There is bunkering further out on the right that makes you think about the possibility of running out of fairway, but if you are that long I think you could just go right over the central bunkering.
   #6 par 3  What can you say about this one, 200+ yards, intimidating looking carry for a higher handicap golfer, you can bail out long  or short right, but getting up and down from either is pretty much a tall order. Left is dead with the hillside sloping down into a ravine. You might pray to get in the bunker, but you had better be a heck of a sand player to get out of there as it is well below the surface of the green.
   In case you are getting the idea that this course is impossible, it is not (well maybe in a 3-4 club wind it could be) IMO. I play off an 11 handicap. More later.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Andrew Thomson

Mark,

I wouldn't say it is 'lacking' in architectural quality, more that the architectural quality is somewhat overstated regularly.  If going to NZ to appreciate great architecture, it wouldn't be the first course you play.  It's by no means bad, but gets heavily overrated due to the wow factor of the site.

Your home course for example, is a better one.

Mark_F

Thommo,

I only know of a handful of people that have played Cape Kidnappers, but they have all said something along the lines of what you feel, yet Ed's description of just those three holes sounds like there is a fair bit going on.

The site has a high wow factor, but do the architectural creations by Doak and Co.  perhaps lack a bit of majesty and drama to compliment it?

The bunkering I have seen only from photos doesn't look too dramatic, for one.

And for once it sounds like there are a decent set of Doak par fives. :)

Andrew Thomson

theres plenty going on, but if I were to criticise the course (which is a bit unfair, it by no means is a bad golf course) I would say that some of the jaw dropping scenery took a front seat in the routing of the course (go figure) while creating the most interesting 'golf' was firmly seated at the back.

Not that I'd do it differently, sometimes even the best architects aim their work at the common denominator ;)

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think people focus on the back 9 because of the scenary and perhaps forget what it has to offer from the architectutal point of view.  Also the front 9 does not get the credit it deserves.  
A better discussion will be possible when Ed has completed his detailed and thoughtful analysis.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Ed:

I look forward to the rest of this review.

Andrew and Mark:

I guess the word "drama" means something different in Australia than it does in the US or NZ!  I'm very curious to hear where you would have routed holes to create more interesting 'golf' on that property ... you must not have looked around too hard.

Mark_F

Tom,

I was referring more to the bunkering, which doesn't quite have the impact it does at Barnbougle or St Andrews Beach.

But then I guess with such a dramatic site it wouldn't have worked anyway?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Mark:

I could write you a long answer explaining why it was hard to build bunkers at Cape Kidnappers that would look any good, because there are no natural contours to build them into other than the ones hanging off the side of the planet.

But the simpler answer is that Cape Kidnappers had so many fearsome natural hazards that it didn't need a lot of embellishment.  The tilt of the greens and the edges of the ravines are challenge enough, and you really do have to pay attention to what you're doing on every shot, even though there are less than twenty bunkers on the back nine.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

I was referring more to the bunkering, which doesn't quite have the impact it does at Barnbougle or St Andrews Beach.

But then I guess with such a dramatic site it wouldn't have worked anyway?
Mark,

From looking at the photos of the site and the bunkering, I don't think Tom could have done much better or bigger bunkering than he has done.

He has tucked them into difficult construction places and probably hit rock in certain places (don't know this but guessing).

Why build more bunkers on a site that had caverns and huge rolls for players to play across or take on?

Just wondering where you are coming from... :)

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

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