Are Trees that Force a Particular Shot Shape Bad Architecture?

[Phil Benedict]

My predominent shot is a draw.  On several holes on my home course there are trees lining the right side of the fairway that make it extremely difficult to hit a draw because there is no where to aim.  No other obstacle (bunkers, rough) with the possible exception of water (because it's hard to aim at water) can achieve the same effect.  The trees are native, so the architect didn't put them there to promote a certain shot shape; he carved the course through the trees.

The fact that we have holes where my shot shape doesn't work very well because aerial hazards get in the way has forced me to work on a fade, which I think is a good thing.  

[Gary Slatter]

We have many holes where the green requires a draw (to get at the tougher pin placements) and originally Dick Wilson left lone pines on the left to encourage a draw.  He also had a few with trees on the right, asking for a fade.  Unfortunately all the isolated or single stands of pine have died, but when I am playing the holes, the stumps remind me of Dick Wilson's original brilliance (he was probably helped by Joe Lee, or Rocky Roquemore, and Craig Wood).

I love aerial hazards,  with fairway height grass under them, no raking and good for the birds.

[Tom_Doak]

I have defended trees as aerial hazards, but mostly on second shots where you have been given a chance to play around the trouble off the tee.  

I don't think any hole should require a draw off the tee out of a chute of trees, because most people can't hit a draw.  On the other hand, it's great to REWARD a draw off the tee with a better angle into the green.

[Phil Benedict]

I guess my point is that on a dog-leg right shaped by rough or bunkers I can still hit a high draw even though it's not the optimal shot shape, whereas a dogleg right bordered by trees (eg 18 at Augusta) I would probably have to try something other than my normal shot.

[BCrosby]

Phil -

The 18th at ANGC, even from the back tees, does not require a fade. It's the ideal shot, but there is plenty of room to hit other shaped shots after you get past the initial chute of trees.

Gary Slater -

Craig Wood (the very good pro player from the '30's and '40's) designed golf courses with Dick Wilson?

Bob

[Doug Siebert]

I agree with Tom Doak here.  I think its fine if you have a fairway that lets you hit straight for say 240-250 yards but if you want to go longer you either have to curve the ball or hit over the corner.  And its fine for a chute of trees (or a single strategically located tree) to make it difficult or impossible to take that "over" option and only leave you with the option to curve the ball.  Guys who can work the ball can hit it as far as they want.  Guys who can't have to lay up to the corner off the tee and play a longer approach.


Phil,

I don't think I agree with your premise here.  I don't see a problem with trees off the tree making it difficult for you to play a draw due to the way they line up.  They shouldn't line up so that you can't play a straight shot, but you shouldn't expect to be able to play the draw off every tee.  The architect is requiring you to produce a straight shot (or a fade) and if you can't play that shot with the club you'd prefer to use off that tee, you'll have to choose a different club which you can hit a straight ball with.

One thing that annoys me in this regard is when architects fail to take the prevailing wind into account.  My home course built a new tee for the 9th hole some years ago, which is set at an angle quite a bit right of the straight down the fairway path.  The fairway runs sort of SSE, into the prevailing south wind, which acts as a nasty quartering wind into you from the right from that tee.  This makes it tough because you want to aim right to allow for the wind, and the worst trouble is on the left -- moguls, blocking trees, etc.  There are bunkers right but the furthest is only about 240 off the tee so very easy to carry these days even into the wind (they used to be a real pain 10 years ago before the modern ball and big headed driver gave me 30-40 yards more carry into the wind)

The problem is that there are two large trees that overhang the ideal line I'd like to take with a straight ball.  Since the tee shot is very steeply uphill the first 150 yards, its not possible to hit over those trees, and the stronger the wind blows the more the branches overhang that line!  So I'll yank every other drive left in an unconscious avoidance move plus manage to hit the overhanging branches about once a season.  Clearly when that tee was added they didn't think about the consequences of those two trees, and haven't seen fit to remove them (the pro plays a nice holding fade so he doesn't see the problem )

I'll grant that before the big headed driver made hitting a controlled holding power fade into a quartering wind a task for only the most accomplished players that this wasn't really a big deal.  When the wind was blowing 20 mph, pretty much no one could carry the far bunker up that hill, so you had to hit a fade anyway.  But the equipment has evolved in the meantime and now this hole has become more difficult in many ways as a result despite added distance taking the bunkers out of play!

[Scott Weersing]

There are days when I can only hit a big draw off the tee with my driver.  It is my fault. So I do not like trying to hit out of chutes of trees. I have a hard time when a chute is just 25 yards wide.

 Do I blame the person who designed the course? No, I just try to find another club that I can hit straight. I might not get to the green in two but I can get close enough to chip and make the putt.

I try not to play courses with lots of trees down the right hand side of the teeing area. Most courses I play have few trees because I live in the desert of Southern California.

[Jason Topp]

I think that if you play the back tees, you should be able to hit it out of a shoot of trees.  I also think it is reasonable to require a particular shot shape to take full advantage of a driver.  

I think the calculation changes from more forward tees.

[Gary Slatter]

Phil -

The 18th at ANGC, even from the back tees, does not require a fade. It's the ideal shot, but there is plenty of room to hit other shaped shots after you get past the initial chute of trees.

Gary Slater -

Craig Wood (the very good pro player from the '30's and '40's) designed golf courses with Dick Wilson?

Apparently he worked very closely with Wilson and Jack Daniels while building LUCAYAN CC here on Grand Bahama (1962 and 1963).  A few of our original players told me how they used to use sheets from the hotel for the turning points and bunkers and Craig Wood hit shots, etc. Trying to get some of the pictures.  He stayed on as Head Professional (during the winters). Wood won the Masters and US Open!

Bob

[Phil Benedict]

Doug,

My point in this thread is that an architect can achieve certain potentially desirable ends through the judicious placement of trees because they interrupt the flight path of the shot, whereas other hazards only come into play along the ground.  There are plenty of dogleg rights where I can still hit a high draw, but not if there are trees impeding the flight path of the draw.  I think that's a good thing about trees, because they can make one-dimensional players try different shots.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Phil:

I say just aim right at it -- no, it's not a cell tower:


Mark

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think they make for a great feature.

[Matt_Cohn]

Few things in golf are less enjoyable than smashing a drive into a tree 50 yards from the teeing ground, then playing one's second shot from the rough 400 yards from the pin.

It certainly eliminates the recovery shot.