Banks or Raynor?

[Mark_Fine]

I think most of us know that Charles Banks was heavily involved with the design work of Seth Raynor.  In fact, if I’m not mistaken, Banks completed nearly a dozen of Raynor’s courses after Raynor's death including Fishers Island.  So why doesn’t Banks get much if any credit?  Maybe a better question is “How much credit should he get”?  In Golfweek’s latest ranking’s, Banks’ name only appears twice with Raynor; for The Dunes Course at Monterey Peninsula CC and for Fox Chapel GC.  

I’m playing Fishers this week and wondering just how much influence/input did Banks really have there?  Did he hurt or help the end product?  Should he be given any credit and how would that be or have been decided?  Was the Raynor/Banks relationship much different from the Flynn/Toomey one for example?  On courses where Toomey was involved, his name is most always listed!  

I know this “credit where credit is due” question was addressed quite heavily with The Black Course months ago.  But I think it deserves a further look on an architect by architect basis.  Heck, I just saw a recent post from Tom Doak on the new Stonewall course and that he was disappointed that “he can’t be onsite as much as he wanted to but that he has a very talented team there to handle things”.  Hasn’t some other famous Tom said the same things?

We all know that building golf courses is not like painting by numbers!  Regardless of who “designed” the plan, what gets built generally ends up being somewhat different then what was first intended.  In the case of Banks/Raynor, especially where he completed “Raynors” golf courses, what’s the deal?  
 
Mark

[George Bahto]

Mark: Banks was only with SR for a very SHORT time but Raynor gave him full credit for the projects he work on with him - and there were many - too many to document here.

When Raynor died Charlie Banks had many more courses than you could image - plus to courses he lost because he was either not as a big a "name" as was his partner - Banks became a partner not too long after Raynor stole him from Hotchkiss.

Banks had little to do with the design at Fishers Island - but did complete the course, of course - same at Yale (but he was working there)

Then you bring up the issue of who gets proper credit etc.....  well, probably at F/I and at Yale there was little left to do - same Yeamans Hall, although a few bunkerws there look supicously like Banks. But at Fox Chapel and Blue Mound there was a lot left to complete - they being up north and with Raynor dying in Jan 26 and work had come to a halt.

Raynor never saw ground broke at Lookout Mtn but he designed it without Banks - same with Waialae and Mid Pacific.

So where does the credit go? Hey, they were partners and I doubt if they really cared - I'm sure Raynor didn't from what I've been able to build of his (nearly non-existent) "profile."

Banks and to clean all these loose ends up before going out on his own. He was a bit more talented than most people think.

There were a lot of plans that were at courses that some clubs  had built by others. Two quickly come to mind: Essex Fells here in NJ had a set of plans and they hired the Scottish pro at Upper Montclair CC to use as his guide - and this was about 3 or more years after Raynor died (Banks probably didn't even know of the plans although he was working nearby); there was Silver Spring CC in CT built by Robt White according to Banks plans after he died.

Not all really black and white - which is why it takes so long, complicated by Raynor who documented next to nothing.

Can you imagine rookie Banks in 1926?  .... like, "Raynor - you died now - in the middle of all this" - -                  hah

I built an interesting Timeline of Events that shows the years they were working and where (to the best I could figure out).  The activity during the years 1922 thru the time of Raynor's death was reaching hectic pace (as it was with all the archies, we can be sure) - but in the case of Raynor he was much more hands on than some of the others.

Most of the time the completion of a course is listed as ,,,,, Yale 1926 .... well the project lasted nearly 4 years with contacts a year or so before that - so it is not just one year for a course.   Shoreacres spanned over WWI as did CC Fairfield, Shorecres goes on hold for the duration as does CCF but at CCF continue the massive landfill operation. Those course went on for about 6 to 8 years.

[Mark_Fine]

George,
Appreciate the thoughtful response!  Just seemed to me that maybe Banks has not gotten his justful dues.  In all the courses he worked on with Raynor, his name rarely gets mentioned.  As you say, he may have been a bit more talented than most people think.  Then again, maybe not?  How many of his own courses stand up to the measure of great?
Mark

[George Bahto]

Mark: you asked" "Then again, maybe not?  How many of his own courses stand up to the measure of great?"

Of his own designs, you're probably right. His best works, in my opinion (boy, you'd better put that in on this website ) are Whippoorwill, his design at Essex County CC - the West course now butchered as a public access, The Knoll, Foresgate

[Lester George]

George,

Don't forget Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club!

Lester