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Jack_Marr

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Harrington's design philosophy
« on: May 30, 2007, 06:30:17 PM »
Or at least some of it. Here's an article I was subbing  - the unedited version...

PADRAIG Harrington is teeing-up for a new challenge - his first
attempt at golf course design.
Harrington, winner of the Irish Open at Adare Manor last Sunday week and currently eleventh in the world rankings, has signed up to design a new championship standard parkland course in the village of Marfield, just outside Clonmel.
To be known as The Marlbrook, the course, located on the magnificent and historic 400-acre Marfield Estate in the very heart of the famed Golden Vale, will measure over 7,000 yards and, while not due to officially open until the spring of 2010, has a provisional par of 71.
Harrington admits to being more than a little excited about the venture.
"This, to me, is a really a hobby, a true labour of love," he said at yesterday's unveiling.
"Over the years I have had perhaps 30 offers to get involved in golf course design and I've passed on every one ... until now.
"I've been looking for the perfect location for my first golf course
design venture and I feel I have found it at The Marlbrook, with its beautiful specimen trees and superb views of the River Suir, and I know we can create something special.
"Certainly for four or five years I have been looking for the right
opportunity. I like the idea of designing a course and I genuinely see it as an enjoyable pastime, a hobby more than anything else.
"I'm looking forward to testing a few ideas out and seeing if they work. The philosophy is that it should be challenging for the good golfer and playable for the average one - and not possible for the high handicapper.
"That's a pretty lofty aspiration, I admit, because it's easy to
design a golf course that is difficult for everybody. This is my first course and, if I don't get it right, it will be my last.
"The first one has to be as good as it can be. I've been selective all along in what I was prepared to look at, but I really think I have found what I was looking for at The Marlbrook.
"I have always felt that courses should have shelter, and with the Comeragh Mountains running all along one side, we certainly have that, and then we have the River Suir bordering the entire course on the other side.
"The shelter should ensure that the majority of the course, even in the worst of conditions, will be an enjoyable place to be out on.
"The site is absolutely perfect. A lot of it, as I've said, is well
sheltered and it has a lot of rolling hills and undulations. There are a lot of elevations in it, too, and a lot of mature trees.
"This will be very much a club orientated undertaking, geared towards the membership and with a real club atmosphere.
"There is property development with it that will obviously go a good way towards paying for it, but it's all more to do with having a sustainable and viable golf course that is going to be there forever," said Harrington.
He does, though, have a bit of a sting in his architectural tail. What is his aim as regards putting his signature on The Marlbrook so golfers will say 'That's a Harrington course'?
"To fool people into playing where they think is the safe place and then have them find out that it's worse than where they thought the danger was," he said.
John Marr(inan)

Tom Huckaby

Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 06:55:40 PM »
"I'm looking forward to testing a few ideas out and seeing if they work. The philosophy is that it should be challenging for the good golfer and playable for the average one - and not possible for the high handicapper.

Don't you/Padraig mean "not IMpossible for the high handicapper" ?

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 07:22:14 PM »
I would assume it has lots of benches for his friends to enjoy the slow pace of play that no doubt would incorporated in a PH design. lol

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 02:06:03 AM »
"I'm looking forward to testing a few ideas out and seeing if they work. The philosophy is that it should be challenging for the good golfer and playable for the average one - and not possible for the high handicapper.

Don't you/Padraig mean "not IMpossible for the high handicapper" ?


Tom - that's what I thought, but I rang the journalist and he confirmed that Padraig meant "not possible for the high handicapper". That's what I found unusual, as well as the last paragraph.
John Marr(inan)

Rich Goodale

Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 04:09:49 AM »
Thanks, Jack

I think Harrington is making a very intriguing point.  While we can happily applaud the egalitarian nature of our game, obviously there is some lower level of skill below which the game ceases to be pleasureable, for either the player and (more importantly) his or her fellow competitors.  Why should the architect even consider the 150 shooter, or the 140, or 130, or 120..........?

Not that such players shouldn't be able to play the game (assuming they are thoroughly versed in etiquette), but should architects spend any of their precious time designing dumbed-down features for the torture of the foozlers?  Anybody incapable of breaking 120 has enough trouble on his or her hands on a perfectly flat, well-mowed cow pasture.

And, if we really want to make this discussion interesting, how about the 110 shooter, and the 100, or even the 90........?

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2007, 04:18:12 AM »
Jack,

What do you make of the Christy O'Connor course at PGA National in Dublin??

I am here this week and it seems like every golf pro in Ireland is doing a course somewhere.
What is interesting is here is a country with great old traditional links and a great tradition of and love for golf yet  many of these new courses are imitations of what peoples impressions of American golf is - the courses they see on television - and they show little interest in creating great Irish golf courses with their own character in what are terrific parkland settings.
I assume these pros are only names on the projects - who is actually doing the work?


Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2007, 05:26:16 AM »
Rich

You're right, but I've never heard anyone "designer" say this. I thought his comments were interesting, considering the usual bland comments thrown out at such launches.

That said, I am always amazed and pleased how much joy some high handicappers get from a round of poor golf. It is a game for everyone.

Mike

I have played it and think it is one of the most Americanised course I've experienced in Ireland. It's only up the road from me too. I should qualify this by saying that I've never played an American course.

I was not a fan of this particular design, although I did enjoy playing there. I think O'Connor Jnr has come up with some very good designs. Headfort New and Esker Hills are excellent, in my opinion. I also like Rathsallagh.

Anyway, re the Americanized courses here... The thing is, Ireland's great courses are nearly all links. So when new links are built, they are nearly all pretty traditional in design.

But when Parkland courses are built, they are generally more American. But Irish people love these courses, so why not? And tourists love these courses, so again why not? Americans get to experience these all the time, but they are a little more of a novelty over here, so they do have value.

There are lots and lots of traditional parkland courses too. Nobody, even the architecture enthusiasts, give them much attention, because the quality of the links is so good.

In England, it's slightly different, because of some of the great heathland courses etc. But who's ever played the Old course at Headfort? Or the Grange, or lots of other super courses like that with not much international profile...

Anyway, I've gone on a bit.

John
John Marr(inan)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2007, 08:00:01 AM »
I understand why Irish developers might want to build American type golf courses on inland properties. They are novel and all that.

What I've never understood is why American developers don't build more Irish links type courses in the US. They would be novel and all that.

Or is it simply the eye candy of American type courses that wins out in both locations?

Bob

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2007, 10:47:04 AM »
Very interesting Jack .

But he has been spouting this sort of stuff for years .

Back in 2005 , a blank canvas was the thing .

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1578479,00.html

Does that experience make you want to design your own course?
I'm going to do a course in Dubai. I must have looked at over 30 projects around Europe, Asia and the U.S., but Dubai is ideal because it's a blank canvas.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2007, 11:04:43 AM »
Jack - many thanks - and this is then indeed a very intriguing point.

On the one hand, Rich is right.  Dumbing down courses for the really really high handicapper wouldn't seem to be a good use of design ideas.  BUT.. the term "high handicapper" encompasses a wide range of golfers.  By making this statement, Harrington seems inclined to disinclude them from playing his course.  That's all fine and dandy, and may work out in the end... but he's potentially alienating a lot of players... not to mention creating a slow play nightmare in the event high handicappers play the course anyway, which they inevitably will.

I can't think of any courses that are "impossible for the high handicapper."  Even the most severe can be managed, at great pain.  I just wonder how seriously he means this and how severe he wants to make this course.....

The last highlighted point is very interesting also.  But I can't see how he's going to do that AND make a course that's impossible for high handicappers - there wouldn't BE ANY SAFE AREAS PERIOD, would there?

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 11:15:54 AM »
Last week an Irish Company, HARCOURT, purchased the former Bahamas Priincess Resort (Grand Bahama Island) and both courses (Dick Wilson Emerald Course 1964 and Joe Lee Ruby Course 1967). They now own over 2000 acres.
The rumour is PADRAIG HARRINGTON will be redoing the two courses in the very near future.  A Fazio redid them in 1960-1 but a couple of hurricanes undid them in 2004-5.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 11:55:08 AM »
He redesigned some of the holes in my old course (and his home course) recently. They were ok, and improvement, but I'm not sure if they proved he had what it takes. His father built this course originally, with others. Stackstown, it's called.

His father was a great man by all acounts.

John
John Marr(inan)

Jim Nugent

Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 11:26:09 PM »
I thought Padraig's comments about shelter would get more reaction...

"I have always felt that courses should have shelter, and with the Comeragh Mountains running all along one side, we certainly have that, and then we have the River Suir bordering the entire course on the other side.

"The shelter should ensure that the majority of the course, even in the worst of conditions, will be an enjoyable place to be out on."

Does he mean shelter from the wind?  Not clear to me what the River Suir shelters golfers from, unless it's wild animals of the non-amphibious/flying type.    

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2007, 03:47:21 AM »
Jack,

What do you make of the Christy O'Connor course at PGA National in Dublin??

I am here this week and it seems like every golf pro in Ireland is doing a course somewhere.
What is interesting is here is a country with great old traditional links and a great tradition of and love for golf yet  many of these new courses are imitations of what peoples impressions of American golf is - the courses they see on television - and they show little interest in creating great Irish golf courses with their own character in what are terrific parkland settings.
I assume these pros are only names on the projects - who is actually doing the work?



Mike, by the way... I believe this project was first taken on by Jack Nicklaus. There was some disagreement with the owner, and O'Connor Jnr was then brought in. I think Nicklaus did the layout.

Anyway, this is what I heard, but of course I could be wrong.

John
John Marr(inan)

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2007, 08:03:45 AM »
He redesigned some of the holes in my old course (and his home course) recently. They were ok, and improvement, but I'm not sure if they proved he had what it takes. His father built this course originally, with others. Stackstown, it's called.

His father was a great man by all acounts.

John

Your home course is a hilly course near Dublin(Forget the name)

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harrington's design philosophy
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2007, 09:12:18 PM »
Matthew

That's right - the name is Stackstown  Golf Club.

John
John Marr(inan)