[Jordan Wall]

Oakmont is always a favorite on this site, what are some other examples of great courses which are very penal?

[Phil McDade]

Jordan:

Pine Valley is often mentioned in this regard.

I think Blackwolf Run in Wisconsin can be very penal, but I'm not sure I'd characterize it as a great course.

Interestingly, I have heard from those who have played it that Prestwick can be very penal, especially for those new to a links experience. It's not long at all by today's standards, and it is at least historically an important course, and its "greatness" comes from some unique and sometimes copied architectural features (the Alps hole, the massive Cardinal bunker, the tight OB on some holes).

[Steve Kline]

I didn't find Pine Valley that penal. Yes, a really bad shot leaves you in a bad way, but I was able to get around there in 78 and 74 the only two times I played it and I wasn't really on my game. I made 3 doubles on the four par 5's we played - now those two holes were penal. I haven't played Oakmont, but in reading about it it sounds like even good golfers struggle to break 80 there.

[Steve Kline]

Whistling Straits is very penal.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bethpage Black.

[JSlonis]

Steve,

You need to play Pine Valley when it's playing a bit firm and fast.  It's also infinitely tougher when you are really playing it to post a score.  I've played it quite a few times with benign conditions during just a "fun" round.  The course appears much different during a competitive round. It's amazing that the shots you take for granted when your just playing a normal round get so much tougher when it really counts. The pressure that the course can put on you, in addition to the pressure you put on yourself, makes the place really shine.  Just to give you an idea of how exacting Pine Valley can be, I believe Trip Kuehne shot 85+ in the first round of the Crump Cup last fall and then followed it up with a 71 the next day.

Like Steve didn't find PV that penal, I felt the same way with my first trip around Bethpage.  The rough was just moderate when I played. I'm sure deeper rough can make the course a lot more difficult, although deep rough can make any course more difficult.  I thought the greens and greensites were pretty tame for a supposed penal course.

[Phil_the_Author]

J, on your first trip around the Black, what tees did you play from and what was your score in relation to your handicap?

[JSlonis]

Philip,

I played from the back tees, and shot 1 over. The day I played, I'd probably say the course was as benign as you'd find it.  Nice day, minimal wind, receptive greens, moderate green speed and moderate rough.  It was a steady round, and I very well could have missed a lot of what makes the course so hard.  I kept the ball in the fairways and hit a high % of the greens in reg. I'll be honest and say that was just my first impression.  I'd like to play the course under some different conditions to see it play differently.  I didn't find it as overly demanding as some of the other top difficult courses.

Based on what I saw, I could see the course being a brute for golfer who perhaps would play from the wrong set of tees.  The course would be too long and the bunkers too big and tough for the average player to get around with a decent score.  Just the sheer length alone makes this course extremely tough.

[Phil_the_Author]

J,

Great driving!

One of things that I love about the Black is how you can score on it if you play good shots. I believe it to be eminently fair, yet extremely penal in how the good player pays severe proces for poor play.

For example. My oldest brother was a pro for a number of years down in El Paso. When he was a 17 year old high school kid he set the course record on the Black by shooting a 62! 29 on the front & 33 on the back.

He birdied every par four except for 2 & 18. Parred all the 3's & 5's. Shot 9-under par.

He played the Black more than a hundred other times and never broke 80 again.

I hope you have a more successful adventure the next time around!  

[Tommy Williamsen]

The most penal great course that I know is Royal County Down.  The front nine has holes where you can make any number.

[JSlonis]

Philip,

62!  WOW!  

From the tees I played, the only way I'd ever shoot 62 is if I ran out of daylight on the walk from the 15th green to the 16th tee.

[Evan_Green]

I would think several Pete Dye courses would apply...

In particular:
TPC Sawgrass
Kiawah Ocean


Pretty much any links course (or any other course for that matter) can be very penal depending on how high they allow the rough to grow...

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Shinnecock.  I don't know if its my game or its in my head but Shinny is as hard as they come.  I find it at least 2 shots harder than Pine Valley.

Our late pro Jim Lucius who played in a number of Opens always thought Oakland Hills was the hardest course he played?   I haven't played it?

[G Jones]

Carnoustie is a penal driving course, as on almost every hole if you want to reach the green with something less than a wood then you have to drive to a small 20 yard gap directly between huge deep fairway bunkers. Not of mention bunkers in the middle of the fairway at driving distance (2nd, 6th), plus a dash of OOB right next to fairways (6th, 7th, 8th, 18th). This, fortunately, is coupled with huge flat greens, otherwise the course would be impossible.

Pine Valley is penal, but in a different sort of way. The fairways are huge, the course isn't particularly long, and you probably only visit the scrub a couple of times... however the hazards are really nasty.

Courses like carnoustie are penal in their design/bunkering layout/etc. Whereas PV has very penal hazards that thankfully are most of the time easy to avoid (you can bail out to the right side of the 13th green for example, whereas you can't normally bail out of a drive at Carnoustie and still reach the green).

[redanman]

Gotta go with

BB - nice job Jamie, even if benign for a first-timer. Rough was brutal on Monday.  I call 9-12 the (par 4) longest mile.

Carnoustie - can be loads more fun than the Black, but with the right wind can have you bawling like a child before you're done.

Muirfield - Biggest footprinted bunkers around.

Kiawah Ocean -  I don't even want to step on that set of back tees. I have tremendous respect for that golf course.

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't know quite the definition of penal that we are going with. I saw something about in relation to your handicap, so that is what I am going with. For me, the Heavyweight Champion is The Honors Course!!! I hit a slight draw-pull 2-iron off the first tee and it didn't get a good bounce. I ended up with the ball, literally 5 feet above my feet. I hit that one about 7 feet in front of me. It only got worse from there. 2 is very intimidating from the back tee and that is a par 5!!! The real monster at The Honors for me was #3. Pretty healthy par 3 with a small green and if you miss it, you are TRYING to make 4 the rest of the way. 5 is an all-world par 4 with a treacherous 2nd. 7 and 8 are doubles waiting to happen with water everywhere on the par 3 8th. 9? Justin Leonard chipped backward to avoid dealing with the green and that was in match play!!! The back nine is actually a lot more tame until you get to 15, but what does it matter at this point? A friend of mine played NCAAs here in 96 and he said it was the toughest he had seen. Woods shot 80 here, although with a 67 and 2 69s in the same tournament. This course easily gets my vote. Well clear of Wolf Run. Btw, the greens here are fabulously conditioned, but scary to play. They look like they wouldn't hold a greenside bunker shot, but they hold everything perfectly and they are hard. Give The Honors some wind and I don't see how it gets any tougher. Anyone that shoot something reasonable here, has my utmost respect. For my life, if I had to par a par 3? #3 and #8 at The Honors would be in the top 10 last ones that I would choose.

[Ari Techner]

I would agreee with those that mentioned Oakland Hills South.  Almost all of the fairways have trouble (generally deep bunkers) on either side of the fairway, there is nowhere to miss with the driver.  Couple that with greens that are extremely contoured and extremely well bunkered and this course can really hurt anyone that is not on their game.  

[cary lichtenstein]

I think it depends on your handicap and how far back you play. I have found few courses to be too penal if I played within myself, and learned fairly early on that about 6750 is where I belong and any further starts to put too much pressure on my game.

Given a penal course, playing it too far back, IMHO spoils the round, but playing it from the correct set of tees enhances it.

[Phil McDade]

Cary:

This is verging on the Matt Ward theory of golf courses -- that is, courses aren't ever too penal, it's just that golfers are too dumb to play from the correct tees.

I never play from the tips, and always play from tees that suit my barely mediocre game. And I still find some courses (like Blackwolf Run) overly penal, while finding much enjoyment out of others (Lawsonia Links) that provide challenge without exacting punishment that's over the top.

[Andy Troeger]

Interestingly, I thought that the Meadow Valleys and Irish courses at Kohler were much more penal than the two more highly regarded layouts, which I did not think were penal, just hard. The last 4 holes at the Irish were excessively so IMO.

I would have to say Wolf Run is penal although I loved playing it. Desert Forest is probably the most penal course I've ever played.

[Phil McDade]

Andy:

I'd agree for the most part about Meadows Valley; I didn't include it because I've played it less and some folks don't seem as familiar with it. I have yet to play the Irish; a good friend of mine who's played both the Irish and WStraits finds the Irish harder (from mid-tips, not the far back ones...)

[Doug Siebert]

Cary:

This is verging on the Matt Ward theory of golf courses -- that is, courses aren't ever too penal, it's just that golfers are too dumb to play from the correct tees.

I never play from the tips, and always play from tees that suit my barely mediocre game. And I still find some courses (like Blackwolf Run) overly penal, while finding much enjoyment out of others (Lawsonia Links) that provide challenge without exacting punishment that's over the top.

Bah, guys like cary and Matt who I would guess hit it mostly straight always assume this.  There are plenty of us who are easily long enough to play from the tips anywhere who would be overwhelmed by a tight course from the ladies' tees on a day when the 'ol swing timing's way off

I think that a lot of what makes a course penal, as well as what makes a course great, is in the eyes of the beholder.  I know there are plenty of people who don't even think Carnoustie is great, so it couldn't be an example of a penal course for them.  I consider it great, but don't consider it particularly penal, but then I've been quite successful there so maybe it just fits my game somehow.  Though, on the other hand, I'd consider Muirfield quite penal (as well as great) but I had a terrific ball striking day there and played quite well, so I make that assessment based on knowing how awful my day could have been if I had happened to have visited there on a day when my ball striking was off.

Guess it depends somewhat on the definition of penal, which to me simply means there are plenty of places where a bad shot results in the loss of more than one stroke, either due to a stroke and distance penalty, or a situation where it is very unlikely you'll be able to get yourself back to where you ought to have been with a decent shot in the first place.

Theoretically, a course with wacky enough sidehill lies or where angles were important enough could do this to you with 100 yard wide fairways, but even at TOC I don't believe this is really the case.  That is, I ain't never seen it happen from "bad" places in the fairway on any course other than maybe a handful of holes, those wishing to prove me wrong are free to invite me to an example of their choosing!  So in practice I think it takes penalty strokes, trees or deep rough to make a penal course, but I'd love to be proven wrong about that.

[Sean Leary]

After playing 10+ rounds there in the last two weeks, Prairie Dunes sure fits the bill.  I brought 3 plus handicaps there this weekend for 6 rounds, and none of them got through around without a double, and no one shot par.  The course was was easy as it is ever going to play due to the 20+ inches of rain they have had this month,  yet it is an unrelenting test of golf from tee though the green.

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