[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick
I tend to assume (perhaps wrongly) that every hole on a well-designed course has a #1 pin position, i.e. a pin position that the architect thought BEST 'completed' or 'fulfilled' the hole's basic strategic design/intent, particularly on the Par 4s and 5s.

Tom D is probably right about the lack of golfing IQ of many modern players (including me); but if I'm playing a golf course for the first time, I’d like to satisfy what golfing IQ I DO have by occasionally being able to intuit a likely pin position I CAN'T see from the tee-to-green strategic features that I CAN see; and that pin position is not the kind you're describing. And if I’m doing THAT, I'm probably already doing all the "thinking" I can.  

This is not a criticism, but I think your question points to an interesting (and rare) dovetailing of the modern professional game/ethos with the high-level and traditional amateur game that you play. That is, the professional sees in practice rounds and knows from past experience a number of likely pin positions, as does a good amateur who's a club member or has a favourite home course. For both the pro and the club member, the kind of pin positions you describe would certainly add more "thinking" to the round; I'm not sure it does the same for a golfer who seeing many of the courses he's playing for the first time.

I'm also not sure that any of this is relevant to your question, which in any event seemed to specify "clubs" and not public courses....but I thought I'd add my thoughts to the otherwise near-unanimous support you've been getting.  

Peter  

Edit: I just read Terry's post. What he said.

[Doug Siebert]

I've noticed some of the local courses have been putting pins closer to the edge of the green than they used to -- as little as three paces.  I assume that's probably because the PGA Tour has been moving them closer to the edge.  This isn't widespread, its just one hole now and then, but it is interesting to see how everyone follows what is happening on tour.

I would support having some tough pin positions, not just moving closer to the edge but in places that, as Patrick says, "make you think" when you are back in the fairway hitting your approach trying to figure out where you want to be, or more importantly, where you don't!

I've always loved the scrambles where they just go nuts on the pin positions, putting them in some horrific locations (hey, if you've got four cracks at every putt, having a place that might lead to "infinite putting" isn't necessarily bad)  I remember one that did lots of interesting things:

1) one hole was the size of a dinner plate
2) another was barely large enough for the ball to fit
3) one was cut in the fringe right behind a huge bunker
4) one hole on a very large green had three pins cut, you were invited to "choose one"

OK, that's not what Patrick was talking about, but it was pretty damn fun and better than the usual scramble where you are kicking yourself for every birdie putt you miss because you know someone's going to win the damn thing with a 55 so you can't afford to give up many opportunities!

[Marc Haring]

Patrick:

The reason you see less of it nowadays is not due so much to the overall length and difficulty of modern courses, in my opinion, as much as a fear on the part of management (manager, pro, and superintendent) of doing anything that would upset the customers.  Which goes back to the lack of golfing IQ of many modern players, of course.

Tom; I think you've hit the nail on the head there. In the UK it's the greenkeeper under the guide of the superintendent who gets to decide on pin locations and they get no thanks for imaginative work, just complaints of unfair positions. Years of this and it's not too difficult to work out that the grief can be easily avoided by sticking them in easy spots.

Having said that, I like to keep them thinking every now and then, especially in the winter when we can get away with some more imaginative spots. Never do it in the club champs though; too many 'experts' playing!

[TEPaul]

Sully:

"Tough Day" at GMGC is a form of scramble? I guess that shows how much I know about what's going on at my own club.

I view that combination as sort of self defeating and I reiterate that I think Patrick's idea is a good one even if I wish I could say that without having to give Patrick credit for it on here which is a whole lot tougher to do than "Tough Day" at GMGC could ever be.

"Tough Day" at GMGC was the idea of a good friend of mine on the Green Committee and the idea was to simply show the latitude of the course and its architecture.

But here's a concept for you that I think would be interesting for a golf course or for an architect to conceive of.

How about a "Tough Day" pin positioning on a golf course and also make everyone (even women) play from the championship tees?

That would sort of inherently show just how strategically structured a golf course was or could be and it might help all golfers play strategically to their individual abilities.

Who cares if it took high handicappers or women 4-5 good shots to get to a green or three good putts to get to tough pins? If that's the best of their physical ability then it should be somewhat satisfying to them in a strategic sense.

The point is it would be the real deal in a physical handicap sense and it would also put pressure on the architecture to accomodate them strategically somehow.

It is also interesting to note that this is the way of original golf when multiple tees or multiple tee markers did not exist. It could also create a "personal par" instead of some artificially set "par" apparently relative to group ability via numerical handicapping.

We played Shinnecock this way a month or so ago from the US Open tees and if you just bag your ego against par and just play the golf course as strategically as you can it's kind of cool and can show you something about your own strategic intelligence and also the latitude of great architecture.

It's a little bit like when Patrick qualified at NGLA for the National Singles when he was sick and couldn't hit the ball anywhere. He actually shot a great score by just playing really smart and stratetigally recognizing his lack of strength and distance.

[Dan Herrmann]

but, really, exactly who sets hole locations on a day to day basis?

My experience with 3 different clubs is that they're set by the asst. superintendant.  Does he know enough about golf strategy to take on an assignment like this?

Heck - a lot of them don't even place tee markers correctly  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I tend to assume (perhaps wrongly) that every hole on a well-designed course has a #1 pin position, i.e. a pin position that the architect thought BEST 'completed' or 'fulfilled' the hole's basic strategic design/intent, particularly on the Par 4s and 5s.

Peter, I would disagree with that.
It sounds far too one dimensional.[/color]

Tom D is probably right about the lack of golfing IQ of many modern players (including me); but if I'm playing a golf course for the first time, I’d like to satisfy what golfing IQ I DO have by occasionally being able to intuit a likely pin position I CAN'T see from the tee-to-green strategic features that I CAN see; and that pin position is not the kind you're describing. And if I’m doing THAT, I'm probably already doing all the "thinking" I can.  

I've played with mid to high to very high handicap players and you'd be surprised at how many interpret the architect's visual signals correctly.  True, many don't possess the skill to precisely interact with those signals, but, they do recognize them and attempt to negotiate their way as best they can.
[/color]

This is not a criticism, but I think your question points to an interesting (and rare) dovetailing of the modern professional game/ethos with the high-level and traditional amateur game that you play. That is, the professional sees in practice rounds and knows from past experience a number of likely pin positions, as does a good amateur who's a club member or has a favourite home course. For both the pro and the club member, the kind of pin positions you describe would certainly add more "thinking" to the round; I'm not sure it does the same for a golfer who seeing many of the courses he's playing for the first time.

NO, that's not it at all.

This is a club no different from most clubs where the average handicap is about 18 or more and the bulk of the membership is enjoying these crafty locations a great deal.

Most members are now disappointed when a hole is cut in the middle of the green.[/color]

I'm also not sure that any of this is relevant to your question, which in any event seemed to specify "clubs" and not public courses....but I thought I'd add my thoughts to the otherwise near-unanimous support you've been getting.  

I think there is a difference between implementing this practice at a private course where you have a captive audience and a public course where you want to get as many players around as possible.[/color]

JES II,

Having the leadership of the club FIRMLY behind the concept is critical, for once the complainers realize that a deaf ear is the recipient of their criticism, the criticism diminishes and quickly vanishes.

The members are enjoying the golf course more than they have in years despite the brutal rough.

[Patrick_Mucci]

but, really, exactly who sets hole locations on a day to day basis?

Several of the green crew[/color]

My experience with 3 different clubs is that they're set by the asst. superintendant.  

Does he know enough about golf strategy to take on an assignment like this?

Yes, they do and they do a good job.

But, suppose they make some mistakes, so what.
99 % of the golf is match play, and in tournaments, the hole locations are softened.[/color]

Heck - a lot of them don't even place tee markers correctly  

The product has been very favorably received by a good cross section of the club and most everyone wants it to continue.

IT'S FUN[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's amazing.

Over the winter the members were up in arms when they heard about a massive tree removal project.

But, by Memorial Day, the bulk of the membership agreed that it brought about a huge improvement in the golf course.

Initially, there were complaints about the difficulty of the hole locations, but, when it became apparent that they were here to stay, the bulk of the members fell in love with the concept.

The KEY is that the club's leadership has to endorse the concept and be firm in that it's here to stay.

The result, the complaints have ceased and members are suggesting new hole locations.

The real result is that the game is MORE FUN with these unique hole locations.

This is something you can't experiment with.
You have to do it and commit to doing it irrespective of the complaints.  In time, the bulk of the membership jumps on the bandwagon and enjoys the golf course more than they have in the past.

[Tom_Egan]

We've been long gone from New Jersey, but it used to be the practice at Baltusrol from about November 1 each year until March 1 the next to cut four holes in each green with only one flagstick for the four.  Each hole was cut within about 3 paces of two of the edges (in the corners).  After each group holed out, they put the flagstick in one of the three holes they did NOT use.

Advantages of this: 1) less work for a maintenence crew reduced in size for the winter; 2) less stress on the grass than if only one or two holes were cut; 3) reduced wear on the large middle section of the greens which are most used during the regular season; and 4) maximum fun for the members due to the extra challenging hole locations.

Some of our most fun rounds were during the off-season.  The only real frustration was in hitting an iron shot to within a foot or so of a hole NOT being used.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Egan,

That's a pretty clever idea.

However, Baltusrol may have the advantage of having some pretty good sized greens.

On smaller greens 2 to 3 holes might work well.

It's a clever concept and I'm surprised more clubs don't use it, especially when a club with Baltusrol's standing in the golf community employs the practice.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Tom and Pat-
I've seen that done before too for winter play and like the idea. I would think that it would help in the hard winter ground to cut pins in November and let them go through the season. I can sometime barely get a tee in the ground

As far as these unique or difficult pins, I think that its a fun idea for members courses. In the first round of match play at my course, during the club championship, the first hole had a pin cut on the extreme side of the green atop a knob. Nobody complained because of the match play, and the top golfers at the club got to see what was, at least in my group, a brand new pin. I liked it. But I really shouldn't be all this excited after my three putt on the hole  

[Norbert P]

          "making golfers think"

 It would only make me think of what I should have done after the hole was finished.  I suppose if someone played a course multiple times and had an intimate knowledge of its green features, then perhaps they could think prior to getting to the green of how to maneuver to and select for getting to the greens best putting position. But in my world of sparse play at no regular layout, with limited vision beyond the length of what my 8 iron hits the ball. It wouldn't "make" me think very mcuh.  Nu' uh.

  "Mortimer! Don't you have any brains?"
  "Uh, nope. Not with me."

   Edgar Bergan   (Let it sink in)



A couple of years ago, Ken Nice, then the Super at Pac Dunes, now B Trails, kindly took me around for the morning cup cutting for some kind of "Superintendants  Tournament".  Apparently an annual tourney that goes from course to course in the region. Anyway, he was cutting some devilish areas to putt to and the idea of using rarely used hole locations for his peers let me know that these guys could easily make life tougher for the regular resort patrons. Under the circumstances of messin' with his cronies, it occured to me that all's fair in friendship and war.  And I think he got a kick out of it.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter & Slag,

This has nothing to do with devilish locations, locations on slopes or knobs, rather, it's a tactical placement where a consequence occurs with a mis-thought and/or a misplaced shot.

That doesn't disqualify a hole location from being placed near a tier or the edge of a green, but, the area within 3 feet of the hole is relatively flat, so, it's not a devious situation putting wise.

The challenge putting wise is primarily distance since the hole is usually cut near the perimeter.

Slag,

I'm shocked to hear that you would only review the tactical nature of the hole location and its implications and effect on play, AFTER you've played the hole.

Surely, the visual signals are heightened by the unusual locations, and not hidden.

[TaylorA]

Patrick:

We architects have a somewhat different take on this.  I like to see interesting hole locations on my courses, but I have also been made to look like a crazy designer by some young man who has cut a hole in an untenable spot.

I am not sure from your post if you are endorsing "tough day" as Tom Paul says, or simply asking for more variety.

The reason you see less of it nowadays is not due so much to the overall length and difficulty of modern courses, in my opinion, as much as a fear on the part of management (manager, pro, and superintendent) of doing anything that would upset the customers.  Which goes back to the lack of golfing IQ of many modern players, of course.

Tom, do you provide a drawing that outlines where you visioned the pin positions for each green?

I was working one summer on a golf course and the super turned over setting pins to me. All but one day, the pins were set in "vanilla" positions. That one day, I set all 18 pins in the most difficult locations I could find. (I wasn't setting them on slopes - but they weren't far from them.) I was playing that afternoon and wanted to see what I could do to the playability of the course. While I had fun with the pins, apparently many of the customers did not! I was threatened that I would be fired if I ever did that again.

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